KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Hi All,

When I think about what has been going wrong with my game lately, the answer I come up with can be summarized in two words: donk calls.

Almost always, I know even as I'm clicking that I'm making a donk call, and after I get stacked I duly write into my tourney journal something like "Overall played OK with mediocre cards; a few good steals; got stacked when TPTK ran into two pair."

Anyway, I'm posting these two, because I actually don't think I made any mistakes, but now I'm on a losing streak and starting to doubt my judgment.

I've been playing pretty taggy, 18/12/1.6. Villain in first hand is very loose and sort of passive over 25 hands, 43/16/0.9, although he hasn't actually shown down bad cards. No reads on villain in second hand, as it's my first hand at the table.

HAND 1

UTG: (3110 in chips)
UTG+1: 300 in chips)
MP1:(2510 in chips)
MP2:(835 in chips)
HJ: (785 in chips)
CO: (2110 in chips)
BU: (4155 in chips)
SB: (1825 in chips)
HERO: (4995 in chips)

Blinds 15/30, Hero is in BB with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Action: Folds to SB, who completes. Hero raises 60 to 90. SB calls.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets 1735 and is all-in. Hero?


HAND 2

UTG: (4095 in chips)
VILLAIN: (5430 in chips)
HERO: (6820 in chips)
MP2: (3545 in chips)
HJ: (1140 in chips)
CO: (1905 in chips)
BU: (720 in chips)
SB: (735 in chips)
BB: (1960 in chips)


Blinds are 25/50. Hero is MP1 with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Action: 1 fold, Villain calls 50, Hero raises 150 to 200, four folds, SB calls 175, 1 fold, Villain raises 200 to 400, Hero?

Look, I don’t want to start some ridiculous thread about whether one should fold KK pre-flop, but should the limp-minraise have raised red flags???

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Hand 1: Probably some retarded combo draw. I doubt it's a set. I probably just muck it's early and you're flipping a coin.

Hand 2: EDIT, didn't really look at stacks. Bet half your stack, if you run into AA oh well. I've seem people limp RR with all sorts or stupid [censored] and then call a shove. AJ+ 88+.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Hand 1 - I call (and get outdrawn)
Hand 2 - I shove KK (sorry you ran em into AA).... at least call and shove a non-A flop.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

hand 1...fold...if you are ahead it's not by much and with on 90 chips committed no reason to felt here...If the SB is m1king bad plays like this overbet you shoul be able to nail them in a better spot...I probbly just check this pre and play my position with a hidden solid hand

Hand 2: raise more over the limper!!!!!!!!! as played reraise to 1.5 to 2K and call a push

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Hand 1: CALL!
Hand 2: 4-bet to 1500 and call a shove... I can't possibly lay down KK preflop without very strong reads.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

rocco...why instacall in hand 1? He called our preflop raise and is pushing...what do you possibly have him on that we are that far ahead of? I think we see 2 pair here or a decent diamond and I just don't see any value in calling the push

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
rocco...why instacall in hand 1? He called our preflop raise and is pushing...what do you possibly have him on that we are that far ahead of? I think we see 2 pair here or a decent diamond and I just don't see any value in calling the push

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this is a lone diamond too often to not gamble. And it's a complete bluff just as often as it's two pair or a set. I gamble early, I want to chip up. If you bust, fire up another one...

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: raise more over the limper!!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your reply. But I thought the standard was 3BB+1BB per limper? Plus, while I don't want a six-way pot, I do want some action here, no?

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

dunno...with bad players I don't really see a point in guessing early...we can take their chips away without gambling later so why give them an easy shot at ours for no real gain

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Hand 1 is clearly a fold. Why bother with so little committed, and with a good/not great hand? Seriously, if this is heads-up for 1st place, I call, but at 15/30 with 130 BB's insta-fold.

Hand 2 is more interesting. The small re-raise says AK, AA or KK, with AA most likely, given that you have 2 of the K's. You didn't list the buy-in, but the usual donk here would shove with 66 or AQ, not min-raise. That said, you obviously have to at least call. I am sure I would go broke here unless an A flops.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

sonofD..if we cold call in hand 2 are we letting the third player in cheap?

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
sonofD..if we cold call in hand 2 are we letting the third player in cheap?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said "at least call" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. I probably RR, and get shown AA. Really, if you can see into his soul and know it's AA, you can get away from it. Otherwise, I think you go broke.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

hand 1: against a passive player I will usually fold .. this huge overbet looks so much like "OMGZ I finally flopped the nuts..now go pay me off..OMGZ, I'm gonna double up". Normally though the shove is a single diamond, so I would call with enough money in the pot and decent pot odds

hand 2: I would put villain on KK+,AK and I've even seen people do this even with QQ,JJ. You are a favorite against that range, so re-raise and call any shove. You lost against AA busted a couple hands later and loaded another tourney...

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Hand 1: I think we are looking at A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] a lot here, I would call and take the small edge.
Hand 2: The limp-min reraise is scary, folding KK is awful here, its better to call and go for the set. I may also consider calling a flop bet and fold the turn if he fires yet again. Btw if the flop bet is 200 then defenetly call.

edit: Buyin is kinda important for hand 2.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Aparently my hand 2 line is different than the lines proposed by other posters.
Btw even if it sometimes done with QQ and even JJ, its done much more often by AA, youre much more likely to run into AA than QQ or JJ, KK is not exactly a 4.5 to 1 underdog against villain range Im guessing more like 2.5 to 1 or soemthing but to say that KK is 3 to 2 favourite against villain range is flat out wrong IMO

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

I can't believe people who want to call ~1700 into a pot of 180 with TPGK and a flush board. Seriously. If the guy is a donk, there are better spots to take his chips.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

yeah...don't get why people want to guess so early and hope that they aren't even drawing dead...it's QK for gods sake...lay poker rather than gamble for such a tiny pot

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah...don't get why people want to guess so early and hope that they aren't even drawing dead...it's QK for gods sake...lay poker rather than gamble for such a tiny pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting a player on a hand figuring out the equity your hand has and youre pot odds is playing poker as far as im concerned

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah...don't get why people want to guess so early and hope that they aren't even drawing dead...it's QK for gods sake...lay poker rather than gamble for such a tiny pot

[/ QUOTE ]


Putting a player on a hand figuring out the equity your hand has and youre pot odds is playing poker as far as im concerned

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are putting him on A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]X (maybe it wasn't you, but someone else advocating a call), he has 12 outs, and you are flipping a quarter. If the X is one of the board cards, you are a dog. Sorry, but I don't flip coins against random noobs for stacks.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah...don't get why people want to guess so early and hope that they aren't even drawing dead...it's QK for gods sake...lay poker rather than gamble for such a tiny pot

[/ QUOTE ]


Putting a player on a hand figuring out the equity your hand has and youre pot odds is playing poker as far as im concerned

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are putting him on A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]X (maybe it wasn't you, but someone else advocating a call), he has 12 outs, and you are flipping a quarter. If the X is one of the board cards, you are a dog. Sorry, but I don't flip coins against random noobs for stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well but I do.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Hand 1: Definite fold. I think this shove smells like two-pair, trying to take it down there or making you over-pay to draw to your flush. Not even a close decision since its so early and you're so deep.

Hand 2: I'd probably just call, letting the SB behind you over-call. If the flop brings undercards and he has JJ-AA, the money is going in anyway. If an A hits, you can probaly get away from it.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

my votes are for a no-hesitation fold in hand 1 and shove and deal with losing to AA in hand 2.

No reason to gamble even on a draw read in hand 1. And hand 2... what are you gonna do? You still have 2 outs if the worst case scenario hand does show.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Well if villian in hand 1 is passive like you say he is, then it's a fold imo. I think passives tend to be particularly scared of elimination as opposed to risking elimination, and they mistakenly bet too heavy with a made hand on a scary board because they'd rather avoid trouble than play poker. If a passive had A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], imo he's more likely to make a donk minimum bet, or check and hope you either check along or make a small bet that he can call.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

Hand 1 is tough. If it wasn't blind v. blind I'd fold without too much thought, but there's quite a few hands he could have here. Could easily be a single diamond. However, it could also be 2 pair (I think a set is pretty unlikely...wouldn't he raise any of those pairs PF?) or maybe even a spooked baby flush. I'd probably fold, but I think it's closer than it would be normally because of the blind v. blind element. Things pushing me slightly towards folding are villain relative postflop passiveness and the pretty awful pot odds. When we're behind we're way behind, and when we're ahead we're slightly ahead. Our pot odds are like 1.1 to 1, so unless we really think he'd do this with TP hands worse than ours, he needs to be drawing something crazy like 75 or 80% of the time, which I think is a totally unreasonable assumption. If we think he'd do this with KJ KT K8 no d hands it would help a great deal, but I really think this is a fold.

I'm going to abstain from hand 2. I'd be willing to bet if you search subjects for KK PF (or KK preflop or whatever) you can find every possible KK situation ever imagined in previous posts.

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

val...I understand you wanting to get it in if you think you're best in hand one but you never actually proposed a range the SB may have besides a big diamond...What hands do you think he may have that call pre OOP and open push?

Re: KQo in BB--standard action?
 

My guess is the nut flush draw, maybe he has a 9 or 7 maybe he doesnt, its not very relevant( difference is 54% equity to 49% equity).
The thing that scare us is two pair. We have 25% pot equity against two pair.
Against draws Ill come up with a guess of 51% pot equity
Against a worse king( that doesnt have a diamond kicker) we have an equity 83%.
Im not good enough to put an exact range of the frequency we see each type of hand ,however my instinct says call.


If draws are 8 times more likely than two pair its a call.