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- Small Stakes Shorthanded (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24)

- - intuition check (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=467906)

utg is a decent tight tag at like 25/16/2.5, sb is awful.

i think utg's range is KQ AQ AT and some flush draws (A8/A9) combos when he calls the flop. in other words i think he raises top pair jacks on the flop, caps AK/TT+ preflop, and doesn't peel loose on the flop with underpairs not closing the action.

i am fairly sure he will value bet the turn and river when checked to with AQ, Ac9c, and Ac8c (even this river card because he'll put me on KK/QQ)

given this is my turn/river play right?

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9SB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6BB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9BB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, SB folds, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 11BB

Re: intuition check

I like your thought process throughout the hand. I wish I could actually take the time to think about my opponents range like this more often. My usual thought process on the turn here is, "I have TPTK. I bet."

Re: intuition check

Miles,
he opened from HJ, right? I'd be really surprised if {K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,KTo+,QTo+,Acxc} weren't in his range at least some of the time. My guess is you are about 50/50 vs. his range.

Not sure if that makes your turn play wrong though. I assume he bets a huge part of his range when you check here, hoping you're giving up with an underpair and not wanting to give the donk a free card. The river check is questionable though cuz he probably checks behind with all the middle pair hands (which you assume aren't in his range but I don't see why not).

Re: intuition check

[ QUOTE ]
The river check is questionable though cuz he probably checks behind with all the middle pair hands (which you assume aren't in his range but I don't see why not).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the river check is questionable as played. It's quite a parlay that villain peeled the flop with an underpair, bets this turn 3 way, and pays off. The only hand that we're worried about checking behind (Tx) just improved.

I'm unsure about the turn. Unless villain will make a raise with AQ or something, the only time we really miss value is when he has Tx.

Re: intuition check

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The river check is questionable though cuz he probably checks behind with all the middle pair hands (which you assume aren't in his range but I don't see why not).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the river check is questionable as played. It's quite a parlay that villain peeled the flop with an underpair, bets this turn 3 way, and pays off. The only hand that we're worried about checking behind (Tx) just improved.

I'm unsure about the turn. Unless villain will make a raise with AQ or something, the only time we really miss value is when he has Tx.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol you are right I didn't actually pay attention to the river card. If it were a blank would you feel the same way?

ps you guys are way oversimplifying when you assume every tag raises a J on the flop every time.

Re: intuition check

i think almost all tags do raise top pair jacks here "for protection" 3-way with a player behind.

i also thought he was one seat earlier so yeah there are some more hands in his range. dunno how this affects it really.

Re: intuition check

[ QUOTE ]

ps you guys are way oversimplifying when you assume every tag raises a J on the flop every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I think a lot of Jx hands are still in his range even after his flop call. This makes me want to bet the turn.

The problem is we really have to call a turn raise IMO. Do we just fold the river UI if we bet call the turn? Do we call the river hoping to see AQ? I think playing conservatively and just check calling may be the best line here, but I'm really not sure.

Re: intuition check

[ QUOTE ]
i think almost all tags do raise top pair jacks here "for protection" 3-way with a player behind.

i also thought he was one seat earlier so yeah there are some more hands in his range. dunno how this affects it really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the correct play for him would be to raise Jx for protection on the flop. That doesnt imply he cant have Jx tho.

I also think you need to put in KTs and QTs in his UTG range and the fact that its 5 handed makes your play even more questionable as already mentioned by others.

In general I like your thought proces tho and I am not at all surprised that you would play your hand like this. Whats your AF these days? 0.5 [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: intuition check

i don't understand the check turn 3way drawy board.
why would you check?

Re: intuition check

[ QUOTE ]
i don't understand the check turn 3way drawy board.
why would you check?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the OP?

Re: intuition check

you re afraid about a raise turn?

Re: intuition check

Given your OP and thoughts I actually like it quite a bit. What do you do on a K turn? Assuming bet, if he raises what do you do on the river?

Re: intuition check

How can this be wrong? You miss no value from worse hands, you avoid spewing when behind, and you don't miss out on protection when ahead because you are confident every street gets bet and you wouldn't want two bets going in anyway. Me likey.

Bet if a K falls on the turn, yes?

Re: intuition check

[ QUOTE ]
i think utg's range is KQ AQ AT and some flush draws (A8/A9) combos when he calls the flop. in other words i think he raises top pair jacks on the flop, caps AK/TT+ preflop, and doesn't peel loose on the flop with underpairs not closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]
Jacks raise and tens call? That's a pretty fine distinction to be making because they play virtually the same versus your likely preflop range. Only if SB has a jack will it matter that UTG has MP instead of TP. I think you should assume that both jacks and tens will sometimes raise and sometimes call in this situation.

Why not KJ, QJ, KT, QT, JTs, T9s, J9s, Q9s, and K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Plus he may go lower than A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Most of these are far below 100% to play this way but they are reasonable possibilities. His range is probably wider than you think it is.

If you check the turn he will probably bet Ax+ and take the free card otherwise because you look like KK/QQ.

If you bet the turn he will raise KQ, AJ, AT, and JT.

The bad news is the 12 KQ combinations are carrying nearly 100% weight while most of the non-ace hands he might have should be heavily discounted. That's an argument for checking the turn. But the pot is 3-handed which greatly increases the penalty for a free card and that's a good reason to bet.

I'll end the discussion of the turn by waffling and say it's close. If your table feel says he is the "spewy" type of TAG who usually makes the protection flop raise with any pair then check. If he's a more flexible type who can call with a dubious pair and see what develops than betting could be better.

[ QUOTE ]
sb is awful

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Is he a calling station or more of a loose cannon?

River play is automatic. You obviously did the right thing on the turn so keep doing it.