I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

I didn't see any other forum to put this in so I'm hoping it falls under the "views" portion of this forum. Feel free to gang flame me.

I just put up a new blog (shameless plug) and it brought me to the point of wondering what other regular workers and also professional players thought about this (I'm somewhat successful at poker and really have no friends who are pros outside of one who just quit his job and that's only because he's good friends with a successful pro)...

What are the benefits of playing poker? Aside from the money?

What's the hardest thing about turning pro?

Is there anyone who misses the consistency of their day job after turning pro?

All thoughts are welcome and if anyone has any stories about turning pro or going back to a day job, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

i'm a 19 year old student who had previously only ever played online poker for my $$$. (played when underage).
I actually got a job this summer for the job experience more than anything (obv giant paycut from poker) and I find that I enjoy poker a ton more than I used to and as a result play better.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

I worked and totally hated it so i quit. I find it hard to work for people and i love the flexibility poker gives me.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

What are the benefits of playing poker? your freedom and doing what you like.

What's the hardest thing about turning pro? putting in the hours and dealing with variance

Is there anyone who misses the consistency of their day job after turning pro? i don't think so..

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

I haven't worked in more than two years, but I am starting a job search now.

I burned out after two years of almost exclusively live play. Poker absolutely became a job like any other job, something I was not excited at all about waking up and doing.

I will be far better off having a real job and playing poker on the side when I feel like playing, with no pressure.

You have to know yourself. You really do need to LOVE poker to play full-time professionally. You need to get excited about playing every day, playing as long as you need to while the game is profitable.

I don't think I have ever loved poker. I like poker. But I think in the end, I was more drawn to the mental competition and easy money than the game itself.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

Why do you have to LOVE poker to make a living from it? Do you think bus drivers LOVE bus driving?

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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Why do you have to LOVE poker to make a living from it? Do you think bus drivers LOVE bus driving?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, bus driving can hardly drive you crazy for months. You know what Poker can do to you during a really bad run of cards... It's easier if you love the game.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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Is there anyone who misses the consistency of their day job after turning pro? i don't think so..

[/ QUOTE ]

Bobby Baldwin, maybe?

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you have to LOVE poker to make a living from it? Do you think bus drivers LOVE bus driving?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bus drivers have to go to work because they will get fired if they don't. Their performance is unlikely to suffer because of their emotion.

Poker players can cut their hours or just play worse if they are unhappy.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

no medical or dental plans and stuff is key....

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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no medical or dental plans and stuff is key....

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Uh, no.

Benefits are part of a pay package, nothing more. 50k cash, or 40k cash and 10k bennies value including tax consideration, what difference does it make?

I buy my family health insurance. It's just another part of the job vs. poker equation.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there anyone who misses the consistency of their day job after turning pro? i don't think so..

[/ QUOTE ]

I highly, highly, doubt this.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm a 19 year old student who had previously only ever played online poker for my $$$. (played when underage).
I actually got a job this summer for the job experience more than anything (obv giant paycut from poker) and I find that I enjoy poker a ton more than I used to and as a result play better.

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe this is very true

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

Not that my opinion matters, but the best advice I can give you is get a real job, advance your career, and make poker a hobby. You don't want to be that guy who drops out of school early, plays poker for 6 years, burns out, then is forced with having to find a job in the real world with zero education and -zero work experience. How do you think it looks to a potential employer when you say you've been playing cards for the past six years and not working? Hardcore degen is what they see, resume in the garbage.

You'll see the glorification of playing cards for a living way too much on this message board. Stories of an easy life, lots of cash, and tons of personal freedom. I don't gamble outside of poker, but I'd make a wager here that 99% of these stories are from busted ass teenagers still living in their parents' basement living their dream in words only.
You want to know the real story, read the thread from Dynasty in this forum about being a professional card player. You want that life?

Poker for the VAST majority of people should be nothing but a hobby, and a way to make a little extra cash here and there. I make money pretty consistently playing 10/20 limit hold em and 10/20oh8 on the weekends nowadays, but there is no way I'd give up my job in the legal profession to sit around a table with a bunch of a worthless degens who I despise as people.

Cliff notes: Get a job, play poker on the side. If you're good at your job, and good at poker, the money will start piling up pretty fast. Everyone has the bad runs in poker too, wouldn't it be nice to have a bad run but know you have a good job so money isn't a problem? I like that feeling. I *can* lose at poker, I don't care about the money. Others around me, they look nervous, they need that money. I can fire at will, that's an advantage. Just think about it, the answer is obvious.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

I enjoy poker and have fantasized from time to time about playing for a living. But, it's one dream that shouldn't come true. First, I make a very good living in the tech industry (nearly 100k/year) and to make that much at poker would require a ton of hours. Plus, it'd get mind numbingly dull. Poker is fun...as a hobby. My day job is definiately more interesting overall and has a career path which means I have room to shift what I'm doing a little as I progress.

I'd play poker for a living if:
a) I could "work" about 20 hours a week.
b) Make 125-130k in that 20 hours.

Otherwise, the burnout and variance might, quite literally, kill me (ulcers, stress, etc). If I had to crank out 40+ hours a week of poker knowning my family and mortgage rested on my success, I'd turn into a basket case.

Oh, and to someone that asked, yes, I'd miss the day-to-day consistency of a normal job. Coworkers to talk to, days I can just totally slack and get paid, etc.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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no medical or dental plans and stuff is key....

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Uh, no.

Benefits are part of a pay package, nothing more. 50k cash, or 40k cash and 10k bennies value including tax consideration, what difference does it make?

I buy my family health insurance. It's just another part of the job vs. poker equation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does health insurance cost?

I heard it's ridiculous if you don't have benefits and actually have to "buy" it.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I enjoy poker and have fantasized from time to time about playing for a living. But, it's one dream that shouldn't come true. First, I make a very good living in the tech industry (nearly 100k/year) and to make that much at poker would require a ton of hours. Plus, it'd get mind numbingly dull. Poker is fun...as a hobby. My day job is definiately more interesting overall and has a career path which means I have room to shift what I'm doing a little as I progress.

I'd play poker for a living if:
a) I could "work" about 20 hours a week.
b) Make 125-130k in that 20 hours.

Otherwise, the burnout and variance might, quite literally, kill me (ulcers, stress, etc). If I had to crank out 40+ hours a week of poker knowning my family and mortgage rested on my success, I'd turn into a basket case.

Oh, and to someone that asked, yes, I'd miss the day-to-day consistency of a normal job. Coworkers to talk to, days I can just totally slack and get paid, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
4 tables of 400NL for 20 hours a week = ~100K a year

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

I'm lazy, so here's a reply I wrote to a 'Should I go Pro?' post a couple months back:

- Do you make sure you leave the house every day before you play poker? Not every single day, but it's a good idea. Of course you can play in the day and go out with friends in the evening, that's the beauty of being your own boss.

- Do you make sure you have at least one day off a week? Yes, sometimes more. Otherwise you'll burn out.


- Do you treat poker like a job and set yourselves set hours to play? No. Poker isnt supposed to feel like a job! But again, try to avoid monster sessions which can lead to burn out/ tilt.

- Do you limit yourself so you only start playing after a certain hour of the day? No. Play when it suits you, or when you find the games are good. The beauty of playing online is it's flexibility.

- Do you play different types of game (cash, omaha etc...) to keep yourself more mentally stimulated? Yes, but I've been doing this for about 5 years. When I'm feeling burnt out at say, online NLHE cash, I'll switch to O8 for a few weeks or go play live. Just don't donk your bankroll off at something you're a losing player at.

- Do you make sure you go and see friends at least X number of times a week? Yup. But that's just called having a life
....

Some more thoughts....

- Do you find that playing poker online (a). is stressful, b. is overwhelming c. has made you less comfortable in social settings, d. has put a strain on your social relationships It worries me that you think of poker this way to start with. Poker can be a great way to make money, travel the world and meet new people. The swings ARE stressful, so be prepared. But even being a low-limit winning poker player, IMHO, is a million times better than commuting to work and sitting in an office all day with someone telling you what to do.


- How do 2+2 and other poker friends help you to deal with your lifestyle? My first year or two as a pro I had no one to talk to at all about it, after that I met some fellow pros. Like any job, it is very nice to be able to discuss your work with 'colleagues' who understand what it's about. If you don't know any, read and post here.

- Probably a stupid question given my audience, but, is it worth it? You're just out of college so you probably don't realise just how much poker PWNS having a real job. To me, it's totally worth it, and I am not a balla, just a medium stakes grinder/ occasional tourney player who likes my freedom.


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A couple more things I think are very important: Have minimum 3 months outgoings saved. Practice good bankroll management. DO NOT TILT. Anaylse and try to improve your game as you go along. And most of all, you MUST love poker. Just my own personal take on things, others will no doubt give you different answers. Hope this helps and good luck.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

Jobs are for Suckers.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

Thanks.. some good insight here. I really appreciate all the responses and different opinions and views. I think just like every other job it depends a lot on the person and how much they enjoy the work.

To be honest when I'm hot I love it and can't get enough, but when I'm on a downswing full of coolers I'd rather go hang out with friends than play and that's a tell.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

Uhhh.. the greatest value to playing poker versus a job is the FREEDOM... obv. Go where you want, play when you want, take vacations whenever, etc.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

One downside is if/when you bust, a multi year gap in your resume where you played poker full time may not make you that marketable in the job market.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks.. some good insight here. I really appreciate all the responses and different opinions and views. I think just like every other job it depends a lot on the person and how much they enjoy the work.

To be honest when I'm hot I love it and can't get enough, but when I'm on a downswing full of coolers I'd rather go hang out with friends than play and that's a tell.

[/ QUOTE ]


check your PM's

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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One downside is if/when you bust, a multi year gap in your resume where you played poker full time may not make you that marketable in the job market.

[/ QUOTE ]

Understatement of the year.

As well, even if you don't bust and just get by on what you make from poker, what happens in 6+ years or whatever if you just get bored from poker? What if you don't want to play anymore? How the hell do you get a good job after wasting the past 6 years of your life?

The very simple fact of the matter is, the great majority of people who don't play poker (employers) view poker as straight up degenerate gambling. You think a possible employer is going to take the time in an interview to listen to you talk about odds, ranges, and reads? As soon as the words "I've been playing poker professionally for the past 6 years" comes out of your mouth, their ears are closed and your resume is in the trash. As well, nobody is going to believe you when you say you've been making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, have tons of personal freedom, but now you're bored and want to give it all up to hump a $35k year job working 45hrs a week in a cubicle. Riiiiiight. They'll know the real story, that you're a lazy ass bum degen who just blew through his last wad of borrowed money and is now forced to take a job to get out of debt.

This whole topic is just retarded, stay in school and get a real job.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

F the haters, live the dream. If you burn out, so what?

Playing professionally doesn't exclude you from every decent job available. I've had good job offers & I'm in business with people who know exactly what I do.

A lot of people here seem to think if you don't start working straight from university you are at some major disadvantage for life. You aren't. There are a bjillion different lines you can take through life, skipping out a few years doing whatever isn't going to make any real difference to anything.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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Not that my opinion matters, but the best advice I can give you is get a real job, advance your career, and make poker a hobby.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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A lot of people here seem to think if you don't start working straight from university you are at some major disadvantage for life. You aren't.

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Very read dependent.

I write software. I might have been able to take a couple years off after university (and why the [censored] does everyone think it's only the young college students that think of going pro?).

I couldn't take years off now. Tech moves fast. If I had a 2 year gap on my resume, I'd be hard pressed to get a software job again. My skills would be deemed out of date and my industry knowledge lagging (though, really, it wouldn't take me long to ramp up again, but that's the perception).

My committment to software would also be in question, making it harder for me to get a job.

If it's "go pro" vs. "random crap job", that's one thing. But if it's go pro vs a pretty decent professional careeer, that's a whole different level of trade off. And if it's go pro vs. dropping a proven technical career, that's a huge tradeoff that needs serious thought.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

I just got my master’s degree this spring, and started a full time job right away (I was an Intern at the company beforehand). While I don’t enjoy working nearly as much as I enjoy poker, I know that having poker as a job would probably decrease my winrate from the increased hours of play and the repetitiveness of it. It would turn into a job, and become a grind. While I would be able to make more playing poker than at my job, I will probably make more with my job + poker, than either one exclusively. Don’t underestimate the power of not playing with rent money and the benefits it has on your game.

Ten years or so down the road, I hope I can retire from this job, and become a stay at home father, and play poker on the side as my contribution to the income. My girlfriend is very serious about her job, and would never give it up, and I am not too keen on daycares or other forms of substitute parenting. The first 5-6 years would be the toughest, but one they (not sure if it will be plural!) get into school, I would have plenty of time to go to the casino 3-4 times a week and crush the 20/40 (probably 40/80 or 60/120 by then) games. But even that is just a dream at this point, but not working is my life goal. I don’t want to work until I turn 60 or whatever, and then be too old to enjoy life. Give life to me now!

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

I'm a college dropout the last real job I had was busing tables when I had just turned 18. Hardest thing about being a pro is dealing with the variance and putting in the hours. Best thing is the freedom that you never have to wake up really and you can basically do anything you want. You can play anywhere in the world.

To the person who wrote not having healthcare is a huge drawback this ridiculous you would rather make 50k a year with healtcare benefits than 200k without, healthcare is not that expensive even if you get the best possible coverage especially if you are making professional poker player type money.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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Jobs are for Suckers.

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Im 21 and im not a pro although poker is my only source of income. I have never had a job in my entire life, and I plan on keeping it that way.

Benifits of Poker (besides money)

being your own boss / hot asian gold diggers

What's the hardest thing about turning pro?

I would assume it is being able to hold yourself together and constantly get better. Alot of good players have a bad week/month and and completely self destruct. A top pro can handle the swings and also strives to improve his game

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

Note that I am always going to lean towards taking a "regular" job over the poker career since the former is the better long term plan for 9/10 people, but a day job is not the only alternative to playing poker. LOL at the people talking about having a gap in your resume....there are practically infinite ways of making money in this world that do not invole a 9-5 office job.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

Im 21 and im not a pro although poker is my only source of income

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Uh, if poker is your only source of income you are, by definition, a pro.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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LOL at the people talking about having a gap in your resume....there are practically infinite ways of making money in this world that do not invole a 9-5 office job.

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Yea, you can always take up prostitution or selling body parts.

There may be a million ways, but unless you do what you're good at and trained at, it may not be easy. I'd be very poorly suited to any kind of sales job, any job that requires a lot of physical exertion (I have permanent injury issues), or extensive travel.

LOL at people that roll through life with no plan.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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(I'm somewhat successful at poker and really have no friends who are pros outside of one who just quit his job and that's only because he's good friends with a successful pro)...


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who's your friend's friend? he/she should be able to give some valuable insight

Negreanu and Paul Wasicka wrote articles on Pokerpages.com about "turning pro"....check that out

My advice: If you make poker your full-time profession, be fully committed to it...jump in head-first, be passionate about the game, and take your work serious.....good luck

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

I'm a professional online player. The advantages are obvious; you can make a higher hourly rate than at most jobs, and you have freedom to work when you want, and as much or as little as you like, within reason. I'm not a CTS-style superstar but midstakes grinders do OK. My plan is to be a dollar millionaire in around 2 years time, which is a nice amount of financial independence, even if it's not [censored] you money.

The main downside is stress. Even if you don't think you stress as a casual player, you will. Stress has a negative impact on your life that extends beyond poker.

The second downside is that you are quite vulnerable to rare and unforeseen events. The UIGEA legislation had a big impact on online poker. Could something else surprising crop up and wreck your plans? Of course. A skilled 9-5 job is much more resistant to this sort of thing

Still, I think it's worth it, at least for me. However looking at your blog I don't think you are really prepared for this.

You have poor bankroll management, something that is death for any pro. Without good bankroll management the probability of you going bust is very close to one. You must correct this before you consider playing professionally.

Also, you are playing live. Playing live at 30 hands an hour means that it is much more difficult to ascertain your winrate. You noted that a recent downswing cut your $/hr in half, in which case you have definitely not played enough hands to have an idea of your long-term expectation. Given that you are currently earning around $22/hr at work and $50/hr playing poker, and that you will probably spend less hours playing than you currently do working - that's just not enough.

Finally it's vital in my view to have a financial cushion in place, so that you are not eating out of your bankroll. I think it is very unwise to go pro without a least 5 month's expenses to hand. Life has a lot of surprises in store. Actually I think this applies to a lot of ordinary people who give themselves far too little leeway for unexpected bad luck, but it's more important for a gambler. I don't know your situation of course.

Overall I recommend you work on your game and bankroll management, and save money. If you can do it sensibly then going pro is a great idea.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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LOL at the people talking about having a gap in your resume....there are practically infinite ways of making money in this world that do not invole a 9-5 office job.

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Yea, you can always take up prostitution or selling body parts.

There may be a million ways, but unless you do what you're good at and trained at, it may not be easy.

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Your quote illustrates my point perfectly. When did I say anything about it being easy? It takes a helluva a lot more ball-busting work to make it on your own then following the lead of the rest of the flock that takes the easy way working at some crappy 9-5 office job because it's "secure".

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

Do whatever makes you happy, but realize that a small percentage of players make money over a long period of time. A lot of young adults have made major life changes since this recent explosion of poker in the media, and the sad reality is a majority of these people will eventually go broke.

A 250k bankroll in your early 20s is sure nice, but with no job experience and a turn of the poker gods, your roll can be exterminated easier than you think. Many people are riding the wave right now, but as the old saying goes, what goes up most come down. That steady 60k a year job with benefits sure won't seem so pointless once that happens.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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That steady 60k a year job with benefits sure won't seem so pointless once that happens.

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If we're gonna talk about fantasy land... How many kids out of school make this kind of money?

I know exactly none of my friend who'll see a salary like this.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

[ QUOTE ]

You have poor bankroll management, something that is death for any pro. Without good bankroll management the probability of you going bust is very close to one. You must correct this before you consider playing professionally.

Also, you are playing live. Playing live at 30 hands an hour means that it is much more difficult to ascertain your winrate. You noted that a recent downswing cut your $/hr in half, in which case you have definitely not played enough hands to have an idea of your long-term expectation. Given that you are currently earning around $22/hr at work and $50/hr playing poker, and that you will probably spend less hours playing than you currently do working - that's just not enough.

Finally it's vital in my view to have a financial cushion in place, so that you are not eating out of your bankroll. I think it is very unwise to go pro without a least 5 month's expenses to hand. Life has a lot of surprises in store. Actually I think this applies to a lot of ordinary people who give themselves far too little leeway for unexpected bad luck, but it's more important for a gambler. I don't know your situation of course.

Overall I recommend you work on your game and bankroll management, and save money. If you can do it sensibly then going pro is a great idea.

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Very considerate opinion here and I appreciate it, from everyone that has taken the time to post in this thread.

I agree that I need to have a better bankroll management...quite honestly right now mine is horrible. I am still working out the kinks in my game as well.

To be honest I do have a great passion for poker as I'm a competitive person by nature and I do hope to one day make a run at turning pro, although I don't think that will happen anytime soon.

By the way, to the person that asked, my friend's friend is Phil Ivey and I really don't want to bother him or act like I'm trying to be buddy-buddy because of who he is so I take the second-hand advice from my friend, who recently started playing pro. Actually I don't even think I would be able to initiate a conversation with him like that, lol.

If anyone cares to know, the advice that Phil Ivey had for my friend was this: Always know what game you can rely on when you are struggling. Apparently for Ivey it was 80/160 limit hold 'em when he was building his roll starting out in LV. Basically have a game that you know you can beat for the times when you are losing at higher limits or different games. I don't know if that made sense. He obviously stresses bankroll management. I'm sure this probably sounds like a bs story to you guys. It is funny to me though when there are threads on this forum that say stuff like "Ivey Busto?" and show one hand from FT. I know the advice is pretty obvious but it's interesting to hear it come from someone so successful.

Anyways, thanks for all the advice and I'll keep checking in here. I agree with pretty much everything everyone has said, including the contrasting opinions. I was out of work for a month and it was hard explaining to a job what I was doing for that month, so I can only imagine a few years. On the other hand, maybe it would force me to get back in freelance writing, which is something I wish I was doing.

Also, I've read the Dynasty thread a couple times (I lurk) and find his story very intriguing and educational.

Re: I\'m going to get flamed: Day Job vs. Poker...
 

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LOL at the people talking about having a gap in your resume....there are practically infinite ways of making money in this world that do not invole a 9-5 office job.

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Yea, you can always take up prostitution or selling body parts.

There may be a million ways, but unless you do what you're good at and trained at, it may not be easy.

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Your quote illustrates my point perfectly. When did I say anything about it being easy? It takes a helluva a lot more ball-busting work to make it on your own then following the lead of the rest of the flock that takes the easy way working at some crappy 9-5 office job because it's "secure".

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QFT

Deep down most people are nothing more than unmotivated sheeple. Just tell me what to do so I don't have to think about it.