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-   -   5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash games. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=466817)

CaseS87 08-01-2007 06:28 PM

5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash games.
 
I've been getting a lot of PMs lately asking me how I own so hard so decided now is as good a time as any to post this guide I wrote up. This can be applied to full ring or 6 max games, but probably not 3 handed and HU.

I'll probably get flamed hard for educating you guys on how to own 2+2 deep stack fish, but it is their fault for not adjusting.

So here it is.



First things first, always buy in for 20bb, and if you get up to 30bb, leave the game and find a new table. This is crucial if you want to be a successful short stacker.


PREFLOP-


--<u>You don't have to raise preflop that often </u>

Since you are 20bb deep, you can afford to keep the pot small with your marginal drawing hands (AQ, AKo, AKs etc) because it is so easy to get all the money in post flop. Also, if you happen to miss the flop, you only lose 1bb instead of your standard open raise amount (typically 2bb or sometimes 3bb)

To illustrate this point, I have created two fictional poker hands:

You are dealt AK offsuit UTG and you raise it three times the BB. The button calls and it is HU. Flop is J53 with 2 of a suit. You check fold.

As you can see, in this example your EV is -3bb.

Lets now take the same hand, and pretend we limped instead:

AK offsuit UTG, we limp, 2 others limp behind and the BB checks. The pot is 4bb. The flop brings J53 with two of a suit. The BB and you check, one of the limpers bets, and you fold.

The second example is clearly the better play. Your EV in this hand is +2bb (-1bb for your limp, and +3bb for the other players when you flop top pair and win)

--<u>Your raise sizes can be small</u>

This is kind of the same idea as the previous concept I talked about. At a normal mid or high stakes cash game you can usually just raise 2xbb with your strong hands. Raising more than that is pointless because A) you won't get called as often, and B) you'll still be able to get the money in when you flop an overpair easily.

--<u>Hands that can make top pair have a lot of value</u>

When you are deep stacked, it is correct to fold Q2o-Q8o on the button. When you have 20bb on the table, folding these hands becomes a massive mistake. These hands that some "TAGs" would tell you are trash, are actually big winners. If you flop top pair with them, you can get all your money in against 2nd pair and be up to a 3-1 favorite!

--<u>Position is almost entirely meaningless</u>

They'll tell you that position is everything. Well, that may be partially true when you are deep stacked, but when you are 20bb deep, position means nothing. You should be calling raising from the blinds with all the hands that you would limp on the button with. This includes all suited connectors, most suited cards, good top pair hands like Q5o, and most unsuited connectors.


POSTFLOP

Lol, yeah OK...



Ok so thats it. If anyone has any further questions (I can't imagine any, I covered this pretty thoroughly) ask them in this thread and I'll do my best to answer them.

Oh, and if anyone needs any proof that I crush high stakes short stacking, heres a PT screen shot:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1...nstatstjs7.jpg

Jeffmet3 08-01-2007 06:33 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
this is almost as valuable as the Micon System

ImsaKidd 08-01-2007 06:33 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
The secrets are out.

MyTurn2Raise 08-01-2007 06:36 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
on noes...they be stealing my bucket

ebepse 08-01-2007 06:36 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
this concept is overwhelming!


...but no strat in bbv ban/delete

Teh1337zor 08-01-2007 06:37 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
[ QUOTE ]
this is almost as valuable as the Micon System

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Bad Beat Maker 08-01-2007 06:37 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
[ QUOTE ]
The secrets are out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Choo Choo

mason55 08-01-2007 07:58 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
http://www.jawbonepets.com/jawbone/images/product_1.jpghttp://www.jawbonepets.com/jawbone/images/product_1.jpg

FalloutGirl 08-01-2007 08:00 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
thanks op but i would rather learn how to shortstack sngs!

pokerchap 08-01-2007 08:03 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
at the end of this post i realized there wasnt 1 bit of sarcasm in anything you said and you were completely serious.

pokerchap 08-01-2007 08:05 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
i have a question though, who are you and are you a winning player and what stakes and what winrate?

A_C_Slater 08-01-2007 08:08 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
[ QUOTE ]
i have a question though, who are you and are you a winning player and what stakes and what winrate?

[/ QUOTE ]


Did you not see the PT screenshot? He is winning at 7.6bb/100 over a significant sample.

shootaa 08-01-2007 08:32 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
insta-ban

catcher193 08-01-2007 08:37 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
[ QUOTE ]
on noes...they be stealing my skylansky

[/ QUOTE ]

rothko 08-01-2007 08:47 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
this system is incredible. i used case's shortstacking strategy and within 35 minutes was up fifty dollars!!! i highly recommend everyone buy in to this system.

USC@MICH 08-01-2007 08:48 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
"I'll probably get flamed hard for educating you guys on how to own 2+2 deep stack fish, but it is their fault for not adjusting."

Most 2p2 players are nits anyway!

CaseS87 08-01-2007 08:49 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
If this gets stickied, we will see a lot less "I am BUSTO" posts around here. Make it happen.

ImsaKidd 08-01-2007 08:50 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
Op you forgot to mention merging your range.

MusashiStyle 08-01-2007 08:51 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
I'm still waiting to hear what Mr. Sklansky has to say about this. very very intrigueing though.

tereg 08-01-2007 08:51 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
[ QUOTE ]
If this gets stickied, we will see a lot more "I am BUTSO" posts around here. Make it happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

ImsaKidd 08-01-2007 08:51 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
http://members.cox.net/xpsetup/chewbacca.jpg http://members.cox.net/xpsetup/chewbacca.jpg

CaseS87 08-01-2007 08:53 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
[ QUOTE ]
Op you forgot to mention merging your range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't let them know all of our secrets!

(One of my secrets is that I LRR shove 32o every time I get it for deception)

SmokeyRidesAgain 08-01-2007 09:02 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
[x] buy in for 20bb

Lurker. 08-01-2007 09:06 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
awesome.

holdme 08-01-2007 09:15 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
shortstacking nl2 right now...results to follow

LionelHutz00 08-01-2007 09:21 PM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
[ QUOTE ]
http://members.cox.net/xpsetup/chewbacca.jpg http://members.cox.net/xpsetup/chewbacca.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

oh [censored] i get it now. lol.

Golden 08-02-2007 01:01 AM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
Saw a 5/10 FR table the other day, all the stacks were below 300, must be because Chris Ferguson had his shortstacking ass there. I don't mind shortstackers, but when a pro does it at every table he's at, people start to think "well if he's doing it, it must be the best way to play" and it sucks when an entire flock of shortstackers is at a table.

SkeetyMcdoogle 08-02-2007 01:03 AM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
lol

Quagmyer 08-02-2007 09:01 AM

Re: 5555th post- A complete guide to shortstacking mid-high NL cash ga
 
5555th post is a good sign you should move to pocket 5's


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