TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

Villain is a tagfish who probably lurks occasionally and learns just enough to get himself into trouble. He makes moves at the wrong times, doesn't follow though when he should and vica versa, uses weird and awful bet sizing, gets too tricky. y'all know what I mean.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $10/$20
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $3187.00
UTG+1: $593.00
MP1: $1970.00
MP2: $3477.30
MP3: $4134.40
CO: $3772.50
Button: $5439.00
Hero: $2551.00
BB: $3216.00

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
6 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $65</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $220</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $620</font>, Hero calls.


Here my feel was that he was making a straight rebluff, and I elected to call. I don't really like this with 125BB in retrospect. So,

a) is this bad
b) if so, at what stack size is it better to call the 4-bet than to 5-bet. Or is there in practise never a point where it's better to call a 4 bet OOP with TT than to fold/rr?

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

Are you auto folding when a J,Q,K or A comes on the flop? This is why I think just calling is bad. This hand is so hard to play when flop hits with an overcard or not. If you think he is bluffing, shouldn't you just push pre?

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

I will certainly felt on some boards with an overcard. Yeah, I tend to agree that I should have shoved pre. But what should I do with 200BB? 300? 150? That's what I'm wondering.

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

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I will certainly felt on some boards with an overcard. Yeah, I tend to agree that I should have shoved pre. But what should I do with 200BB? 300? 150? That's what I'm wondering.

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maybe you shouldnt 3 bet PF ooP 200BB deep vs this kind of opponent?! I might even flatcall JJ very deep. He seems sorta tough, although bad from your description.

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

fold to 4-bet!!

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

eh, i dunno man. if i was gonna continue with the hand i'd just shove rather than call the 4bet.

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

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eh, i dunno man. if i was gonna continue with the hand i'd just shove rather than call the 4bet.

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qft, also your hand looks pretty [censored] strong to villian and I'm sure he is going to play a lot of hands slowly - including AA (ie possibly checking the flop) and it's not going to be easy to make good decisions imo.

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

this fourbet doesn't look at all small to me, looks pretty standard. it costs you a bit more than 15% of your stack to call it; that's about the size I'd make it with anything that I'm fourbetting with

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

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your hand looks pretty [censored] strong to villian and I'm sure he is going to play a lot of hands slowly - including AA (ie possibly checking the flop)

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If my hand look strong then why would he check the flop with AA? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Anyway, as I said I don't think his is good with these stacks. What do I do if I cover him, for example?

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

If you think his 4bet comprises all of his open range then I think shove is optimal. Assuming his open range is 22+,suited connectors, AJo+, A2s+, etc then we have to push.

Even if he only calls with JJ+,AKo,AKs we immediately show big profits because his calling range is so much narrower than his 4bet range.

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

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your hand looks pretty [censored] strong to villian and I'm sure he is going to play a lot of hands slowly - including AA (ie possibly checking the flop)

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If my hand look strong then why would he check the flop with AA? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Anyway, as I said I don't think his is good with these stacks. What do I do if I cover him, for example?

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because his flop bet looks even stronger, and on a lot of boards there aren't a lot of scare cards and checking the flop is tricky and deceptive obv [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

I didn't really articulate myself well, I just think that it's going to be extremely difficult OOP and that there's a good chance it will end up in you playing guessing games.

edit: I mean,

You call, flop comes 892r you check, he checks. Turn is a 3 bringing a bd flush draw, you check, he bets 2/3 pot, you're already in a [censored] spot, you call. river is a deuce no flush draw, you check, he shoves and it just gets worse when the turn is an A/K (or even other overcard).

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

Just used 4bet calculator and if he's 3betting 22+,A2s+,KJo,KTs+,QJ,56s+ but calling only with JJ+,AKo,AKs we show an immediate profit of $533.58 and have 40% equity against his calling range.

Of course if his 4bet range is this wide he should be calling with a wider range; but tagfish rarely think like this.

Anyway, shove pf.

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

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b) if so, at what stack size is it better to call the 4-bet than to 5-bet. Or is there in practise never a point where it's better to call a 4 bet OOP with TT than to fold/rr?

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Using a equity calc with his wide 4bet range and narrow calling range of 5bets it becomes -ev to shove at around $11,000.

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

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b) if so, at what stack size is it better to call the 4-bet than to 5-bet. Or is there in practise never a point where it's better to call a 4 bet OOP with TT than to fold/rr?

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Using a equity calc with his wide 4bet range and narrow calling range of 5bets it becomes -ev to shove at around $11,000.

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That doesn't mean that it's best though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: TT OOP vs small 4-bet
 

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b) if so, at what stack size is it better to call the 4-bet than to 5-bet. Or is there in practise never a point where it's better to call a 4 bet OOP with TT than to fold/rr?

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Using a equity calc with his wide 4bet range and narrow calling range of 5bets it becomes -ev to shove at around $11,000.

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That doesn't mean that it's best though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Definitely not. Depends on his post flop tendencies; but when we get deeper than ~8,000 there are definitely lines that are more +ev especially if he's fishy.