What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

I apologize as I'm pretty sure this has been a topic before. But what do you do when Dealers don't reprimand players for mucking out of turn, or mucking their cards face up when the hand is still live?

I generally NEVER like to complain if I'm not involved in a hand, and will usually not say a word. However, at Commerce this past weekend, was dealing with a couple of guys that would constantly muck their hands face up, even with action still live. They were obviously friends, and a few of those times, one would muck face up when the other was still in the hand. They obviously were good enough players that they knew what they were doing wasn't ethical. I didn't want to wait for a situation where I WAS in the hand and this happened, so I said something to the effect of "when you muck your hand, how about you muck it when it's your turn to act, and muck it face down like everyone else at the table?". One guy shot back at me that "hey everyone can see it, so what's the difference", and the Dealer did not get involved whatsoever. I didn't want to be a pain and call for Floor, but would that have been the correct course of action? Or should I have just requested a table change?

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

The dealer was probably doing alright with tips and the table was proceeding at a good clip and everybody's having fun (except you). Mucking out of turn and mucking face up are not serious enough to affect an average game so why would dealer stir up the pot.

And really, what affect is this having on you? I would have kept quiet and tried to figure out how to exploit the situation.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

If you're at a huge room like Commerce, why not just ask for a table change?

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

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The dealer was probably doing alright with tips

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Yeah. How dare OP interfere with the dealer's chance to make tips, just because the dealer wasn't doing his job? What nerve.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer was probably doing alright with tips and the table was proceeding at a good clip and everybody's having fun (except you). Mucking out of turn and mucking face up are not serious enough to affect an average game so why would dealer stir up the pot.

And really, what affect is this having on you? I would have kept quiet and tried to figure out how to exploit the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have met my polar opposite! Hello, polar opposite!

As you might suppose I completely disagree with you. Those types of things affect the game in a significant way. That's why they are against the rules. So let's see: I won't tip that dealer, I'd tell those guys to cut it out, and I'd call the floor as often as necessary to make them stop.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer was probably doing alright with tips and the table was proceeding at a good clip and everybody's having fun (except you). Mucking out of turn and mucking face up are not serious enough to affect an average game so why would dealer stir up the pot.

And really, what affect is this having on you? I would have kept quiet and tried to figure out how to exploit the situation.

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OH HELL NO!!!
are you kidding?! your a poker player right?! your playing to make money right?!
no chance in hell i would let this go down even once without ME saying something to the guy (politely) but i would say something. if the guy or guys did it again, thats when i get a little pissed and tell the dealer if he/she doesnt correct the situation, im calling the floor!
this type of behavior is acceptable in a home game. but when your at a casino, thats what the dealer is paid to do. to ensure the game is run fairly and by the rules! i.e. mucking out of turn and mucking face up!
both of those violations give other players at the table information THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED to! i dont care if everyone see's it, its an action killer. and i for one, wouldnt stand for it!!

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

only a donkey or a timid little girl would accept this and allow it to take place at a game they are in!

thats ridiculous!....move???!!!....my a$$!

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

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The dealer was probably doing alright with tips

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Yeah. How dare OP interfere with the dealer's chance to make tips, just because the dealer wasn't doing his job? What nerve.

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You have to remember this took place at Commerce. The dealer also has to consider who is most likely to assault him for speaking up or not speaking up.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

Wow, I haven't had a reaction to a post of mine like that for a while. You guys kinda just woke me up.

I'll slough off the dealer aspect and say, yes most dealers should run their table properly. However, I have seen games where a group of buddies are having fun, feeding the dealer well and there is general good air around the table. And I'm sure if some nit complained the dealer would fix it and the air around the table would change. But that's neither here nor there.

I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The dealer was probably doing alright with tips

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Yeah. How dare OP interfere with the dealer's chance to make tips, just because the dealer wasn't doing his job? What nerve.

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You have to remember this took place at Commerce. The dealer also has to consider who is most likely to assault him for speaking up or not speaking up.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

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ok, brainiac, bare with me here: lets say you have AA in the BB and the cutoff seat has...oh i dont know, 99. still with me?
EP player raises the pot and one guys mucks his hand face up and shows K-9, then two players later, another player mucks face up and shows 4-9.
now the guy with the 9-9 knows he has no outs to improve on his hand. so he wisely mucks also. back around to you and you re-raise and the original raiser folds= no action
you just got nothing for your monster because a couple of idiots didnt fallow the rules!
get it yet?

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

I had assumed, once I had said something to one of the guys, that the Dealer would back me up and at least reinforce the rules, but that didn't happen. I didn't want to wait until I was involved in a hand where this would affect action (whether good or bad for me), as speaking up at that time could give information about my hand. I guess if it happens again I'll speak up immediately, and change tables if the Dealer doesn't enforce the rules.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

To respond to Pants on Fire's last post: in this scenario, the two guys doing it are sitting across from each other, and are obviously friends. I would imagine they have a stronger read on each other's holdings than anyone else at the table. So if Player 1 senses that player 2 is on a club draw, for example, but is holding one of those cards, he mucks face up and lets Player 2 know that he has one less out. This is a VERY minor example, but I would think that the opportunity to take advantage and "exploit" this play is far outweighed by the benefit these two players are getting from the extra information, especially if they are selectively mucking face up.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

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[ QUOTE ]

I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, brainiac, bare with me here: lets say you have AA in the BB and the cutoff seat has...oh i dont know, 99. still with me?
EP player raises the pot and one guys mucks his hand face up and shows K-9, then two players later, another player mucks face up and shows 4-9.
now the guy with the 9-9 knows he has no outs to improve on his hand. so he wisely mucks also. back around to you and you re-raise and the original raiser folds= no action
you just got nothing for your monster because a couple of idiots didnt fallow the rules!
get it yet?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a nice selective example but unfortunately it proves nothing because you could be the guy with 99. It applies equally.

However, if you are a better player than these guys, you can use that information more effectively. Not to mention the fact that you are seeing what cards these guys are starting with, how they are playing their hands and when they are folding.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, brainiac, bare with me here: lets say you have AA in the BB and the cutoff seat has...oh i dont know, 99. still with me?
EP player raises the pot and one guys mucks his hand face up and shows K-9, then two players later, another player mucks face up and shows 4-9.
now the guy with the 9-9 knows he has no outs to improve on his hand. so he wisely mucks also. back around to you and you re-raise and the original raiser folds= no action
you just got nothing for your monster because a couple of idiots didnt fallow the rules!
get it yet?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a nice selective example but unfortunately it proves nothing because you could be the guy with 99. It applies equally.

However, if you are a better player than these guys, you can use that information more effectively. Not to mention the fact that you are seeing what cards these guys are starting with, how they are playing their hands and when they are folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

CONGRATULATIONS!!you, sir, are OFFICIALLY invited to my home game! every tuesday night at 7:00pm Vegas time....bring cash

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

Next time, go through the dealer. In a lot of California rooms, rules are more of a vague guideline to be pointed at and grunted about from time to time, so you need to be flexible. When I'm in the box I try to prevent this, but there's not really anything that can be done, and I can't imagine the floor would kick someone out for this unless s/he became overly belligerent.

The dealer is there to protect the game, and you should ask the dealer to take care of the situation. The people doing this don't give two craps about you, as you discovered.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I am really curious about how you guys figure you are being put at some disadvantage here? Would you just try to get the proper procedures in place because they are rules or are you feeling cheated or otherwise -EV?

Are you saying you can't exploit this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, brainiac, bare with me here: lets say you have AA in the BB and the cutoff seat has...oh i dont know, 99. still with me?
EP player raises the pot and one guys mucks his hand face up and shows K-9, then two players later, another player mucks face up and shows 4-9.
now the guy with the 9-9 knows he has no outs to improve on his hand. so he wisely mucks also. back around to you and you re-raise and the original raiser folds= no action
you just got nothing for your monster because a couple of idiots didnt fallow the rules!
get it yet?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a nice selective example but unfortunately it proves nothing because you could be the guy with 99. It applies equally.

However, if you are a better player than these guys, you can use that information more effectively. Not to mention the fact that you are seeing what cards these guys are starting with, how they are playing their hands and when they are folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

CONGRATULATIONS!!you, sir, are OFFICIALLY invited to my home game! every tuesday night at 7:00pm Vegas time....bring cash

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with his general point (that this type of stuff is normal and should be ignored) but you are being ridiculous here, and you are the one who is wrong. Your specific example with the 9's and the AA was a very good example of POF's point, and terrible support for your own. You are just as likely to have the 99 as the AA, and situations that are very similar to that (but more subtle) will benefit a thinking player far more than an average donkey. I don't play at games where I'm not the 'thinking player,' so this benefits me more than anyone else.

Feel free to condescendingly invite me to your homegame, now, I might take you up on it.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

i've never seen thr English only rule enforced at lucky chances or artichoke joes

edit: not that i care

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

If you want the dealer to stop this behavior, slow the game down to crawl. Call the floor everytime someone mucks face up. Play slowly. Call time frequently as you pretend to think about your action. Accidently drop a card on the floor. Ask for a setup change. At five hands or less per down, the dealers may get the hint. Of course the other players may beat the cr*p out of you when you go to the bathroom.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have to remember this took place at Commerce. The dealer also has to consider who is most likely to assault him for speaking up or not speaking up.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."

[/ QUOTE ]

I was in the mood to elaborate on Randy's point in depth but I could never top this [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with his general point (that this type of stuff is normal and should be ignored) but you are being ridiculous here, and you are the one who is wrong. Your specific example with the 9's and the AA was a very good example of POF's point, and terrible support for your own. You are just as likely to have the 99 as the AA, and situations that are very similar to that (but more subtle) will benefit a thinking player far more than an average donkey. I don't play at games where I'm not the 'thinking player,' so this benefits me more than anyone else.

Feel free to condescendingly invite me to your homegame, now, I might take you up on it.

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JESUS!!!!
what dont you understand about this??!!!! its like talking to the wall, only this time the wall talks back and is unbelievably annoying!
it doest matter WHO has the aces and who has the nines! dont you get that?! it makes the game UN-FAIR!!!! the players (you, me, seat 4, seat 10..it doesnt matter) are getting info they are not intitled to! it slows down, and stops the action that might otherwise have taken place!
please tell me you get it now! please tell me im not talkin to a retard! cause if i am, i feel like a real [censored] for arguing ith a retarded guy!
if your not retarded and you still dont get it, please promise me right now that you WILL come by my home game next time your in vegas! or at least let me know which casino your gonna play (donate) at so i can come fleece you of every last nickel!

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to be ejected from the establishment, slow the game down to crawl. Call the floor everytime someone mucks face up. Play slowly. Call time frequently as you pretend to think about your action. Accidently drop a card on the floor. Ask for a setup change. At five hands or less per down, the dealers may get the hint. Of course the other players may beat the cr*p out of you when you go to the bathroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

(ps: the correct solution is to ask the dealer politely -- ONCE -- to please enforce the rules. If that fails, quietly step out of the game and have a chat with the floorperson.)


q/q

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]


I don't really agree with his general point (that this type of stuff is normal and should be ignored) but you are being ridiculous here, and you are the one who is wrong. Your specific example with the 9's and the AA was a very good example of POF's point, and terrible support for your own. You are just as likely to have the 99 as the AA, and situations that are very similar to that (but more subtle) will benefit a thinking player far more than an average donkey. I don't play at games where I'm not the 'thinking player,' so this benefits me more than anyone else.

Feel free to condescendingly invite me to your homegame, now, I might take you up on it.
[ QUOTE ]

JESUS!!!!
what dont you understand about this??!!!! its like talking to the wall, only this time the wall talks back and is unbelievably annoying!
it doest matter WHO has the aces and who has the nines! dont you get that?! it makes the game UN-FAIR!!!! the players (you, me, seat 4, seat 10..it doesnt matter) are getting info they are not intitled to! it slows down, and stops the action that might otherwise have taken place!
please tell me you get it now! please tell me im not talkin to a retard! cause if i am, i feel like a real [censored] for arguing ith a retarded guy!
if your not retarded and you still dont get it, please promise me right now that you WILL come by my home game next time your in vegas! or at least let me know which casino your gonna play (donate) at so i can come fleece you of every last nickel!

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you know what unfair means, but of course, that isn't the argument we are having. You said this hurts MY winrate or MY livelihood, pretending that I am the pro or the OP or whatever. You didn't say it was unfair, you said it was -EV for me. This is flat out wrong, or at the very least your example is a HORRIBLE one and you have to further make your case. Your example shows how this is actually +EV for me (or at the very least, neutral EV), not how it hurts my winrate or is something that I, as a pro player, should be worried about.

As a sidenote (probably shouldn't bother as you seem to have a hard time with the simpler, main point) something isn't unfair if it is equally likely to help and hurt all players equally. Just because it is against the rules does not mean it is unfair. It is against the rules to demand that all players must receive their two cards without looking and then pass them one seat to the left, and play the cards that they now have. This is blatantly against the rules. It is also certainly not unfair.

As a quick mental exercise, try to figure out the impact on EV of players who muck their cards face-up every single time. Feel free to use whatever assumptions you wish, but justify them.

EDIT: Aw [censored] it, I couldn't fix the mangling of the quotes you did, it is what it is.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

oh man i feel like a total idiot! you are retarded! put your helmet back on before you hurt yourself and find your drool cup!
do your parents know your still on the computer? get to bed young man.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

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oh man i feel like a total idiot! you are retarded! put your helmet back on before you hurt yourself and find your drool cup!
do your parents know your still on the computer? get to bed young man.

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I'd expect this in like BBV or something, thanks for mucking up more serious forums with your nonsense. At least you didn't waste time with backtracking or goalpost moving and just went straight into ad homs. Maybe try Politics forum?

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

also did i read it right? your a professional in washinton D.C.??????
thats hilarious!
LMFAO!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
also did i read it right? your a professional in washinton D.C.??????
thats hilarious!
LMFAO!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Nope, you didn't read it right. You missed where I said 'pretending' for the sake of argument. I'm certainly no pro, I just try to be the 'thinking player' int he games I play in. Its only an important stipulation if I'm trying to show that what YOU think is -EV is actually +EV. It is far easier to show that it is simply neutral EV.

Have you worked out the math yet for me? Can you show me how someone mucking their cards faceup is -EV for me, somehow? Or is somehow unfair? Who is it unfair to?

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

ok this is my last post in this thread....(i think)
take a look back at every one of my posts. i never once uttered anything related to EV!! ever! not once!
i simply said that this is (now read carefully) AGAINST THE RULES!!!! AND I WOULD NOT PUT UP WITH IT IM A GAME IN WHICH I WAS PLAYING!!!

im am so done with this. please dont respond! please. cause if you do, my stubborness wont permit me to stay away. i must have the last word.
i just remembered why this website is called 2+2....ppl are still learning the extreme basics

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok this is my last post in this thread....(i think)
take a look back at every one of my posts. i never once uttered anything related to EV!! ever! not once!
i simply said that this is (now read carefully) AGAINST THE RULES!!!! AND I WOULD NOT PUT UP WITH IT IM A GAME IN WHICH I WAS PLAYING!!!

im am so done with this. please dont respond! please. cause if you do, my stubborness wont permit me to stay away. i must have the last word.
i just remembered why this website is called 2+2....ppl are still learning the extreme basics

[/ QUOTE ]

You said it was unfair and asked if the person posting it was a professional playing for money, strongly implying that this somehow was costing him money (and thus -EV). But thank you for not disappointing. I made an earlier post that you had skipped the backtracking and shifting goalposts and went straight to ad homs. Glad to see that, once you realized those wouldn't work on me, you went back to the backtracking and goalpost shifting.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

god dammit! turn your computer off! stop it now!

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

skin city how old are you, seriously?

As for the topic. I let it depend on the juicyness of the game. If I think my being a nit will somehow stop the game from being good I will not pursue the issue further. It is a rule, and it could be seen as unfair to any player at any time (the person holding AA in the example), but as was correctly mentioned, you are just as likely to be the person with 99.

Generally, the games described in the OP are very good so I will let it slide after commenting politely on it once.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

In general this isn't a big deal. Things that might make it a big deal to me is if it's the same guy doing it over and over, and he's consistently doing it after I act, but before his buddy acts. Example, i'm in the 1, Guy A is in the 2, and guy b is somewhere behind that. I raise, guy A has something marginal and waits, guy B mucks something way out of turn face up, his buddy looks at it, then folds when maybe he would have called with 2 suited cards, but his buddy folded that same suit as well.

If they are both doing it though, then i'm unfavorably impacted by half, but then favorably impacted by the other half.

So in a nutshell, if they are both folding out of turn face up, it's ok, if only one is doing it, and the one benefitting is doing so AFTER i act, then I would complain. Also if it's in response to raises, etc and obviously looks like collusion i'd say something as mentioned in my example above.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Next time, go through the dealer. In a lot of California rooms, rules are more of a vague guideline to be pointed at and grunted about from time to time, so you need to be flexible. When I'm in the box I try to prevent this, but there's not really anything that can be done, and I can't imagine the floor would kick someone out for this unless s/he became overly belligerent.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I hate playing against Californians, because they always seem to be like Jamie Gold types, flashing their aces, folding cards face up, telling what their hand is in a middle of a hand, and acting like they are God's gift to poker.

I can't say for sure that all poker players from California are like that, but most I've encountered are.

To the OP, if these two want to play like that, tell them to get a private table, then they can play anyway they want to.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So in a nutshell, if they are both folding out of turn face up, it's ok, if only one is doing it, and the one benefiting is doing so AFTER i act, then I would complain. Also if it's in response to raises, etc and obviously looks like collusion i'd say something as mentioned in my example above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good example. And I completely agree. And if there isn't any angling going on, and everyone has access to the same information at the same time, I think I would let it continue.

What I love about this game is that it is so situational. So two friends start showing everyone their hands, I'm going to count on my ability to adapt to the situation better than others, as long as it remains a "fair" situation (very good example and point made by vhawk01)

finally, skin city, if you disagree, make an argument for your case the way djoyce003 did. Your aggressive flaming of someone who is simply offering constructive criticism is curious. I know guys who like to taunt at the table for what appears to be a bunch of BS, but that's because they are trying to create an image or just put someone on tilt. (i don't approve of these methods, BTW, but I do understand the logic behind them)

But why flame here?

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
skin city how old are you, seriously?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets drop the skin-arguments, he is taking some time off aparently so I think we can move on now.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

What has been a bit overlooked is that they weren't consistently mucking face up. It was usually done after a flop, and only at certain times. Again, given that they know each other, I assumed that they were selectively decided when and when not to muck face-up, and would imagine they were doing so when they thought it would provide good information to the other. Not a level playing field.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What has been a bit overlooked is that they weren't consistently mucking face up. It was usually done after a flop, and only at certain times. Again, given that they know each other, I assumed that they were selectively decided when and when not to muck face-up, and would imagine they were doing so when they thought it would provide good information to the other. Not a level playing field.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this changes things, and is sort of what I was trying to get at with my arguments with skin city. If they are doing it constantly OR randomly, then it won't have any impact on fairness, although it might have an impact on perceived fairness, because the donks are going to remember the times it screws them more than the times it helps them.

But it is definitely possible to do this in a way that actually IS unfair. This is why I said originally that I don't agree with what POF said, and I WOULD make an issue about this, assuming he was doing it in some targeted way that benefits his buddy.

I hate nitting it up, I almost never enforce rules that I feel have no bearing on the game (like string betting and so on) although I don't complain when the dealer enforces them. I love a friendly game. But if a guy is obviously angling, I would nicely ask the dealer JUST ONCE and then immediately go over their head. The absolute last thing I'm interested in is having a big debate at the table, in front of everyone, slowing the game down, with the dealer.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What has been a bit overlooked is that they weren't consistently mucking face up. It was usually done after a flop, and only at certain times. Again, given that they know each other, I assumed that they were selectively decided when and when not to muck face-up, and would imagine they were doing so when they thought it would provide good information to the other. Not a level playing field.

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given the information above, if I was in the hand, and thought that he improperly gave information to his buddy that his buddy used to make a decision, I would most certainly say something. If i wasn't in the hand, i'd keep my mouth shut.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

given the information above, if I was in the hand, and thought that he improperly gave information to his buddy that his buddy used to make a decision, I would most certainly say something. If i wasn't in the hand, i'd keep my mouth shut.

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That is my general rule... but would you want to wait until you were actually IN a hand where this happened to say something? The cards would already be exposed, and just by saying something, you could be giving up information unnecessarily.

Re: What to do with Dealers that don\'t enforce rules?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Subject: Re: What to do with Dealers that don't enforce rules?

[/ QUOTE ] Public flogging in the town square.