Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Only relevant cards shown.

Cute girl(CG) Brings it in for full bet of $20: [XX]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
85 Year old man reraises to $40 with [XX] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Dealt to hero [K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Player behind me has [XX]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
So my kings are dead.

Reads:
Old Man(OM) is semi representing my kings. OM will normally raise on 3rd street with 3 Big cards, almost any pair, 3 of a suit etc... However his reraising range is almost always a medium to high pair.

CG bring in who brought it in for a full amount is somebody who i know very well who i in fact taught how to play stud somewhat and if i 3 bet she will not call me unless she has AA in the hole or rolled 3's so 99% sure she will fold to my 3 bet.

So......
Bring in brings it in for $20, OM who problably has a medium to high PP raise to $40 and I have concealed dead kings.

Whats my play and why?

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Raise.

You would like to take the pot now (though from description of OM you will at least see 4th street), and barring that you need to find out if you are behind. Since CG is predictable and will fold (A3)3, for example, or (JJ)3, you would like her to go ahead and do that, and if OM is really just playing with three Broadway cards you'll have a significant edge because he can't pair Kings and out-kick you -- he has to pair an Ace, make a running two-pair hand or a straight.

I raise because CG will probably fold and you're in good shape against OM, who will probably call. If CG doesn't fold, you'll know how to play the rest of the hand.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Pocket Aces is 1% of the chick's range? What else does she bring it in full with? An no chance that she'll call with a big three-flush?

I'm going to advocate a fold here, mostly so I can contradict the Urge Overkill fan-boy. Your hand is dead, which is bad. I also think that it is very likely that you're up against at least one pair of Aces. In particular, I think an old guy is very likely to have pocket Aces to make it two bets after a decent (I presume) player brings it in full. Maybe he'd do it with pocket Queens, but there are twice as many ways he can have Aces as there are ways he can have Queens, and I think he'd be less inclined to raise with the Queens. And there's some chance that the chick has Aces or a set, right? This looks like it's going to be expensive. I'd look for a better spot.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

I dunno. Girl could be trying to take out the duplicated kings with a variety of hands. Her early position makes the play that much more believable. She may hold pocket 10-10 through Q-Q. Old man may be aware of this and have a decent enough hand to play back. I'd have a tough time laying down KK with a high 2 straight/flush with no apparent dead cards to it. If there were players yet to act behind me (we don't have this info) the action may induce more calls making the 2 straight/flush look even better. I'd be inclined to take one more card and if it isn't perfect fold to any strength. Maybe fold to 2 bets, depending on the pot size, even if it is perfect. Then again, maybe I'm biased because I've won more money with kings up than any other hand in 7CS. I defer to your 7CS experience and skill. If you're adamant, in the future I'll rethink my actions in this position.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pocket Aces is 1% of the chick's range? What else does she bring it in full with? An no chance that she'll call with a big three-flush?

I'm going to advocate a fold here, mostly so I can contradict the Urge Overkill fan-boy. Your hand is dead, which is bad. I also think that it is very likely that you're up against at least one pair of Aces. In particular, I think an old guy is very likely to have pocket Aces to make it two bets after a decent (I presume) player brings it in full. Maybe he'd do it with pocket Queens, but there are twice as many ways he can have Aces as there are ways he can have Queens, and I think he'd be less inclined to raise with the Queens. And there's some chance that the chick has Aces or a set, right? This looks like it's going to be expensive. I'd look for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and also think an additional argument for folding is that you can't improve without them knowing it. You stand to win a medium size pot if you improve by 5th or can lose a large one if you get stuck in a race against Aces with your dead Ks.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Automatically giving credit for Aces is silly. Bring-in can see that Kings are dead, as can the Old Man, which will make any pocket pair play stronger, making both their raising standards lower. At least it ought to.

I raise and hope to get it heads-up with the Old Guy. If that doesn't work then okay, I wasted a bet and I move on. Dead Kings is still better than your opponents figure to have, and if not, you'll find out right away.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

I assume this is stud hi??

If so, in a situation like this I would pump it or dump it on third especially since you have some idea of both opponents tendencies. If you are reraised, I think you need to fold since your hand is so dead. How is the clubs situation? If clubs are live, it may give you a little extra incentive to get in there. But, at the end of the day, you have basically a dead hand & I would expect to get repopped by one or possibly both.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pocket Aces is 1% of the chick's range? What else does she bring it in full with? An no chance that she'll call with a big three-flush?

I'm going to advocate a fold here, mostly so I can contradict the Urge Overkill fan-boy. Your hand is dead, which is bad. I also think that it is very likely that you're up against at least one pair of Aces. In particular, I think an old guy is very likely to have pocket Aces to make it two bets after a decent (I presume) player brings it in full. Maybe he'd do it with pocket Queens, but there are twice as many ways he can have Aces as there are ways he can have Queens, and I think he'd be less inclined to raise with the Queens. And there's some chance that the chick has Aces or a set, right? This looks like it's going to be expensive. I'd look for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and also think an additional argument for folding is that you can't improve without them knowing it. You stand to win a medium size pot if you improve by 5th or can lose a large one if you get stuck in a race against Aces with your dead Ks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well funny thing about this is that if I am behind right now then they MUST have poocket aces(or rolled threes but id doubt that). I therefore know when they improve as well as they will have to pair a board card. He can't have kings, if she calls she does not have split 3's. Also to them my hand looks like QQ mostly and probably not a concealed PP. Also, either has QQ they have a dead card as well.

Lastly, i don't advocate calling at all here, 5 more players to act behind.

My 2 decisions are 3 bet bet to probably get the pot heads up agains OM or fold.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Yeah, you obviously can't call. Also, for all intents and purposes, CG isn't even in the hand, because if she calls 2 cold or reraises she has the nuts and you can bail out pretty quickly. Just treat this as a heads up hand with an extra X% (let's say 10%) chance you are behind to account for the girl.

So, you know approximately what OM has, he knows what you have (because QQ is functionally equivalent to KK here - the only bonus is he might make a bad fold with AA if you hit a Q somewhere) and it's a nice pot/you probably have the best hand. Just pop it. You have an edge, take it.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Does the girl know how to play Stud? In other words is it possible that she thinks this is like Holdem and when it's 20/40 you gotta put 20 out there? Or is she aware that it's $5 BI?

If she knows the BI is $5 I am auto putting her on a 3 flush with an Ace probably. But then the old guy reraises. To be honest there is nothing that strikes more fear into me in poker than a man this old raising at any point in the hand, because these people are so close to death that any movement could be their last, so when they do something so bold as to raise it really means something.

If ANY other kind of player had reraised the bet I would suggest 3betting, but against a geezer I must fold.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Howmany, she knows the bring in is 5.

Seems like the decision is split.
Results for those interested.

I 3 bet all behind fold. CG folds. OM calls.
4th and 5th we both blank off, he checks both streets to me and i bet both.
6th street he makes open 7's(his 5th street card was a 7 as well) but he still checks to me so i check behind.
He checks river dark as well?!?!

I plan on betting river improved checking unimproved as he won't call with worse if i bet. I catch an A on the river and check behind.

He shows 10's and 7's and takes it down.

Edited to add: I asked CG later what she had that hand and she told me she had 88 in the hole.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

I agree without further comment.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Why even consider 3 bets on a dead hand at that point? IF you want to peel another card, call and if you catch good, and the others catch bad, you can check-raise or bet.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Because your hand is fav hu against range of bringin and OM, but will die a miserable death if 4 or 5 ppl make it to 5th street.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Calling here is horrible. You want to play this hand heads up or not at all. I'm inclined to say not at all, but if the ante is high, 3 bets is a must. The way the hand developed, I think you played it right on.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

$3 ante.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

The ante is almost irrelevant to this hand.

It's relevant, if at all, because it affects CG's initial range and may somewhat (by proxy) affect OM's - although it probably doesn't because I doubt OM's range ever changes at all. That's it. Whether you're 'fighting over' $18 + the bets, $15 + the bets or $30 + the bets is totally off topic because, at the point where the action is on us, all that we care about is what OM has and the chances that we're ahead of him. The pot odds involved are only marginally relevant and only come in if his range is small enough that raising/folding is breakeven.

If you feel like folding, justify it with the ranges involved, not the antes.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Call

When people bring it in for a full bet in a live game
 

[ QUOTE ]

If she knows the BI is $5 I am auto putting her on a 3 flush with an Ace probably. But then the old guy reraises. To be honest there is nothing that strikes more fear into me in poker than a man this old raising at any point in the hand, because these people are so close to death that any movement could be their last, so when they do something so bold as to raise it really means something.

If ANY other kind of player had reraised the bet I would suggest 3betting, but against a geezer I must fold.

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From my experience playing playing everything from 5/10 to 150/300 stud in AC, the most common reason someone brings in for a full bet is when they have some kind of marginal pair, but then they look around the table and see a couple of repeated doorcards and so they think they should protect what they believe to be the best, but a vulnerable, hand. I have only seen someone bring it in for a full bet with roll up or pocket aces a handful of times, and never when there are repeated doorcards out because they (correctly) don't want to kill their action with such a monster hand.

In live play, a majority of stud player have a tendency to play draws very passively (because most live stud players older players who haven't studied the math behind the game) so it is pretty rare to see someone bring it in for a full bet with a big flush draw. Amusingly, those same player who would never complete with their big flush draw often times are happy to cold call 2 bets with it...

Lastly, many of the players in live stud games could be classified as old geezers, so the usual assumption "old guy are tight passive" doesn't hold quite as well for live stud as it does for holdem. Given the description of the old man, I would say he his range here mostly includes all medium and big pairs.

Regards,
Carlos

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

Fold. Because a dead hand against two others showing aggression is a loser, and should be avoided.

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

folding is probably best here- who is the old man? ive played this game and it was really good so i think that against certain players, you are losing value by folding, but since your cards are dead it would be best to be heads up- also , what do u look like>, i was playing this saturday also, wearing sweats, 22 yrs old, that should narrow it down to only 1 person

Re: Live 20/40 game at borgata with dead kings
 

ob1, this was last saturday the 28th, i wasn't there this past weekend(the 4th). But if you are referring to the weekend of the 28th when i was there, i was the 29 year old guy. but i'm pretty sure it was only me and the old guys the day i was there. I'm drawing a blank on the old guy's name, but he is a regular but also one of the oldest(which prob won't help)... i'll try to see if i can remember his name.