general question
 

assume 50NL six max
hero is utg with AK and raises to 2
button calls, blinds fold
flop: K 5 2
hero leads for 3
button raises to 9

i find myself in these situations frequently and am not sure what to do with 100bb stacks
thoughts?

Re: general question
 

depends on how aggresive villain is , is it a 2 flush brd? is e he a nit,loose or w/e etc etc ....

Re: general question
 

rainbow board
no reads on villain

Re: general question
 

probably bump it up to 27 , see where im at , if he pushes ill probably let it go , if he calls i have to slow down some

this isnt usually a set line , ppl like flat calling the flop with sets and raising the turn (especially when they dont have to protect their hand (non drawy brd and such)

Re: general question
 

are you really gonna invest the majority of your stack (like 60%) and then fold with tptk?

Re: general question
 

Of course depends heavily on villian.

If they are tight then i can fold this.

Re: general question
 

You need some read/feel to make a good decision here. Maybe it's your image that brings these situations to you frequently? Raise as suggested earlier and it could give you the pot and help with table image..
No problem with folding if you want more information before risking a buy in with TPTK.

Re: general question
 

[ QUOTE ]
probably bump it up to 27 , see where im at , if he pushes ill probably let it go , if he calls i have to slow down some

this isnt usually a set line , ppl like flat calling the flop with sets and raising the turn (especially when they dont have to protect their hand (non drawy brd and such)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is really bad

Re: general question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
probably bump it up to 27 , see where im at , if he pushes ill probably let it go , if he calls i have to slow down some

this isnt usually a set line , ppl like flat calling the flop with sets and raising the turn (especially when they dont have to protect their hand (non drawy brd and such)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is really bad

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Standard 50NL villains call too much, and will be all-in by the river w/ TPGK. They don't get hyperaggressive w/ KQo. The standard play here is fold. You need a read to call or raise.

What is your image? Have you been stealing a lot? What is villain's image? Is he aggressive? Have you seen how he plays TPGK/TPTK before? Does he like to slowplay made hands?

Have you seen a line like this from villain before? Even if it didn't go to showdown, he likely doesn't have a set if he's been doing this fairly frequently.

Re: general question
 

standard play fold??
Villain is betting hands like KJ KQ this way all the time, and with a set most players would simply slowplay. The bet might be seen as a continuation bet after a miss, so he might also be raising hands like A9 T9s.
I also agree with Jzo that this does not seem like a set line to me.
I feel u have to 3bet this, and depending on stack sizes shove it.

Re: general question
 

[ QUOTE ]
standard play fold??
Villain is betting hands like KJ KQ this way all the time, and with a set most players would simply slowplay. The bet might be seen as a continuation bet after a miss, so he might also be raising hands like A9 T9s.
I also agree with Jzo that this does not seem like a set line to me.
I feel u have to 3bet this, and depending on stack sizes shove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO! TPTK is not a hand we want to stack off with by default!

Re: general question
 

3betting is pretty dumb against a random here. all you're doing is maximizing your losses and minimizing your gains. (not there neccessarily are any gains).

even if i knew my opponent had a Kx, i usually would not 3bet. i would call, and then check out the turn, since i'm more likely to get the rest of their money if i leave them in the lead.

fold > call > 3bet

Re: general question
 

rr to 25 and push turn
or even rr allin
either is better than folding IMO

although maybe a call then c/r allin on nearly any turn may be best

Re: general question
 

[ QUOTE ]
rr to 25 and push turn
or even rr allin
either is better than folding IMO

although maybe a call then c/r allin on nearly any turn may be best

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow!

I fold this all the time. On a drawy board with an agressive opponent I reraise. I find it strange to hear this from someone with as many posts as you. Could you explain?

Re: general question
 

actually, i think i will ammend that to call > fold > 3bet. a random is probably more likely to be bluffing, have something like TT or Kx than to have a better hand.

Re: general question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
rr to 25 and push turn
or even rr allin
either is better than folding IMO

although maybe a call then c/r allin on nearly any turn may be best

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow!

I fold this all the time. On a drawy board with an agressive opponent I reraise. I find it strange to hear this from someone with as many posts as you. Could you explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only been playing NL6m for about 200 of my posts [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]..don't take my advice too seriously

honestly though, I am strangely confident that folding sucks here

I think we show a profit by pulling any of the things I said above...even 3betting the flop

keep in mind that I play 25NL and my opinion is based off of what I have seen there (I think we show a clear profit at 25NL..I would assume it is not so clear at 50NL)...so if 50NL is has considerably better players than 25NL...or if random villains turn out to be decent TAGs much more often at 50NL..then I may be wrong...

still, I think, folding sucks..and the only real alternative is getting it allin one way or another as I described above..

Re: general question
 

guys do random villains not raise flop c-bets like this at 50NL with anything but 55 or 22 or a slowplayed AA or something??

I can't imagine that is the case

there is no way we are beat here more often than ahead IMO..

still the possible reason for folding is as others have mentioned, the fact that even if we are ahead more than behind, we lose the full stack when we are behind, and probably won't get many biters when we are ahead..

but seriously, I see people do this at 25NL with any K, mid PPs or slowplayed hands like QQ or JJ that they for some reason decide it's a good time to raise with...and what is more..they're quite happy to get it in here...

I acknowledge that 50NL is not 25NL...but my imagination can't see a rise in skill level that would make me fold this

Re: general question
 

I haven't got much experience at 50NL 6max either. ATM I'm at 5NL FR grinding it out and it seems to be full of nits that are incapable of doing this without a set/overpair. It is harder to win at 5NL than it was at 25NL, really... They must have poisoned my mind [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]...

I feel 66-QQ would flat call hoping hero cbet with air and gives up. KQ might raise, but lower kings hardly ever call a raise PF and don't dare to reraise hero with a crap kicker if he was the preflop agressor...

We are left with AA (unlikely), KK (very unlikely) 55, 22 and KQ (most likely suited). Is this way too small of a range to put him on?

Re: general question
 

I also want to mention something that I have said in other threads and I thought a bit about as my time as a STT player..

lets consider ranges...both the villains raise for raising this flop and his range for getting it in if we decide to do something crazy like 3bet

(first of all, if the villain could have 2 pair here, then it is also likely that he's a donkey and we're good against him enough here to justify playing past this flop)

so we're afraid of??? 55 and 22 obviously (and probably AA as well)

so maybe a range like 22, 55, AA, AK, KQ, KJ, KT is likely.. well that's just great and it may sound reasonable but to make decisions based only on this range is absurd IMO

I think it lends itself well to my little pet idea that when a range can't get much tighter, but can get much looser, we are probably considering too tight a range

if our "read" is off here...where is it going to go?...it can't get much tighter...but it can certainly get looser..any K any mid PP, any pair, a complete whiff?...hell, maybe this guy just raises c-bets like it's his job

the same if true of our opinion of, say, what he'll call with if we decide to just 3bet allin on the flop (just for the sake of argument)

what will his call with? Only 22, 55, AA, AK and maybe KQ?...again, WAYYYY too tight IMO..he simply can't get much tighter here..but he can sure as hell get much looser, not to mention that 3betting allin here seems to send an odd # of villain into callers with crap like mid PPs here

again, this is just my experience at 25NL and a little thought about what 50NL will be like...

I don't blame you if you ignore me..I just wanted to give a few thoughts..maybe spark some more thought or invite someone to tell me that I'm wrong and why...

I think it all comes to together...his preflop range, his raising range here, and his range that he'll get in with...to make getting it allin in some way profitable.

EDIT: I should also add that I have had a terrible headache and a fever for the past couple days and I hallucinate and [censored] when I have a fever...so I might just be a bumbling idiot right now [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: general question
 

There was a similar poat in HSNL and one standard line is to call and then bet 2/3 on turn.

Re: general question
 

Too bad HSNL is a different game...

Re: general question
 

Wow!!! I'm still surprised Prodigy thinks pushing is best. I agree. Most players could be raising the flop with alot of other hands that might want to find out quick if they are beat or not. But, I think you have to take reads into the equation.
If you have a TA with a low aggression factor. I think you fold.
Against a loose aggressive I think you push.
Against an unknown I think you call and see what villian does on the turn if your in postition. If he keeps building a big pot you have to worry, and you should probably fold.

Last but not least. If villian is taking a line like this frequently. Make a note of it, and punish him the next time he does by pushing in similar situation. He can't always have a set.

Re: general question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow!!! I'm still surprised Prodigy thinks pushing is best. I agree. Most players could be raising the flop with alot of other hands that might want to find out quick if they are beat or not. But, I think you have to take reads into the equation.
If you have a TA with a low aggression factor. I think you fold.
Against a loose aggressive I think you push.
Against an unknown I think you call and see what villian does on the turn if your in postition. If he keeps building a big pot you have to worry, and you should probably fold.

Last but not least. If villian is taking a line like this frequently. Make a note of it, and punish him the next time he does by pushing in similar situation. He can't always have a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think pushing is best..I just used pushing as an easy example...although I actually think pushing would be profitable...

probably a regular 3bet or a call/donk turn or c/r allin would be more profitable

Re: general question
 

I like a call c/r turn, or maybe even a call, c/c turn/river. This type of hand is really read dependent though.

Re: general question
 

I call, CRAI on a blank turn and expect to get looked up by KQ, KJ, whatever, way more than 55 or 22. You're all obviously unfamiliar with the Dan Bright theorem, that AK is the nuts, both pre and post flop.

Re: general question
 

assuming its an unknown and the board is of a rainbow texture. I think pushing the flop is the worst play you can make. Your getting stacked against a set and getting ZERO value out of hands like KQ and KJ assuming your opponent is competent enough to fold TPGK in that situation.

Re: general question
 

I think in the end this is just one of those marginal spots that come up while playing 100bb deep. If you want to make this decision WAY easier play 40bb deep. In that case this is an EASY push

Re: general question
 

IMHO. call flop, and see if he gives up, if not - fold.
Raising is bad as it lets him to stack us with better hand, while allowing him to fold with worse.

Re: general question
 

call, then check/call small-medium turn bets and reevaluate on river.

Re: general question
 

Depends on Oponent, im willing to stack off with this vs loser opponent as they may hold weaker king. I call the flop, re-evaluate on the turn, depending on their stats and my reads i may bet or push turn.

Re: general question
 

Yeah I usually call and re evaluate the turn
3 betting to find out where you are at is just so bad

Re: general question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I usually call and re evaluate the turn
3 betting to find out where you are at is just so bad

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard to reevaluate the turn if you're OOP. You can check and he'll most likely still bet a lot of the hands you beat. You can bet, but that's not really reevaluating, is it?

Re: general question
 

I call and evaluate turn. And this is a set line IMO.