phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

two news helicopters crashed into each other in phoenix that were covering a police chase. four men died, two pilots, a photographer, and a photojournalist.

apparently:
[ QUOTE ]
The police chief said the suspect will likely face criminal charges for the deaths in the helicopter crash.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you feel that the suspect is liable for the deaths and should face serious criminal charges?

is this even a bit ambiguous or am i way off here?

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

woooooooooooooooooooooow

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yeah this is pretty lol

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If anyone is charged it should be the cops. If they weren't chasing him there'd be nothing to film!

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i am thinking now that the police chief was likely just making a dumb statement, and the news reports ran with it because it is quotable.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am thinking now that the police chief was likely just making a dumb statement, and the news reports ran with it because it is quotable.

[/ QUOTE ]

this just has to be the case.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

whats the line that the criminal will sue for slander of charcter being called a murderer/manslaughterer?

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
two news helicopters crashed into each other in phoenix that were covering a police chase. four men died, two pilots, a photographer, and a photojournalist.

apparently:
[ QUOTE ]
The police chief said the suspect will likely face criminal charges for the deaths in the helicopter crash.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you feel that the suspect is liable for the deaths and should face serious criminal charges?

is this even a bit ambiguous or am i way off here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Link to the article?
This is analogous to a common case (People v. Acosta) discussed in criminal law classes.

The difference between this case and Acosta is that news helicopters have no duty to pursue a fleeing criminal (is that the case? Can news teams be drafted to support a police chase if no police helicopters are in the area?).
If there is no duty to pursue, the voluntary actions of the helicopter pilots destroy the causal chain started by the fleeing criminal, so he should not be liable for their deaths.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

It's not as obvious as everyone thinks. I don't know about specifically Arizona law, but it's generally a felony murder if someone is foreseeably killed during the commission of a dangerous felony (like carjacking). If someone else on the road was killed in an accident caused by the chase, it would be a clear murder. I'd say it's unforeseeable, but I can see the other argument. A high-speed car chase will predictably attract multiple news helicopters, and they'll be buzzing around without direct air-traffic control trying to get good shots. (Some states also require that the victim be actually killed by the defendant or an accomplice, which is not the case here. Dunno if AZ is such a state.)

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

how big of a difference is it if it were two police helicopters that crashed into each other, as opposed to two news helicopters?

also, is there any liability on the estate of Pilot A for the death of journalist A?

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how big of a difference is it if it were two police helicopters that crashed into each other, as opposed to two news helicopters?

[/ QUOTE ]

are there laws regulating this difference?


personally I think there is a huge diff. and an even bigger one that they are choppers and not cars or pedestirans

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What a [censored] joke. I wonder what crime the guy had committed that he was running away from the cops.

It's clearly not the perp's fault, and I'd be pretty shocked if he was found liable for the crash.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how big of a difference is it if it were two police helicopters that crashed into each other, as opposed to two news helicopters?

also, is there any liability on the estate of Pilot A for the death of journalist A?

[/ QUOTE ]

People v. Acosta involved two police helicopters. Court found it was foreseeable but remanded to a lower court to decide the issue of malice (general feeling was that he would get involuntary manslaughter).
The reason the collision between two police helicopters is causally connected to a fleeing criminal, but collision between two news helicopters may not be, is because police have a duty to pursue fleeing criminals.
Essentially, the fleeing criminal is 'forcing' the police to follow, but the news cameramen are making a conscious decision whether or not to pursue.
If two police cars crashed, it would be pretty lock + shut. The only reason why helicopter crashes raise a question is because they are out of the ordinary and perhaps not foreseeable by the criminal (Acosta court says it is foreseeable, however).

Given the facts, neither pilot has any criminal liability for the death of the journalists in either helicopter. There may be civil liability under negligence depending on the reason for the crash.

Note: I am certainly not a lawyer, and criminal laws differ in every state, so don't start high speed chases on my account.

edit: I don't think felony murder doctrine applies because it also requires causation (Which I think is the main issue holding back liability for the collision between news helicopters, intervening human actors are a superseding cause).

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

thanks for the info ocd, that was pretty much what i was assuming would be the case and underlying reasoning.

i will be interested to see if criminal charges are actually brought against this guy for the deaths (i doubt they will be), and if a civil suit is filed against either pilots by the journalists' families. (no idea)

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I have so much to say being from Phoenix and watching this yesterday for hours on end. I think my reply to every post would get me banned so I'll leave. ttyl.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have so much to say being from Phoenix and watching this yesterday for hours on end. I think my reply to every post would get me banned so I'll leave. ttyl.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or you should get a star for unparalleled lameness.

Spill it.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

Almost posted an OP about this yesterday. It was leading on Drudge Report and FOX News, and eventually CNN.com. It happened right by where I both live and work, and it was the talk of the town. The reason I didn't post it is the stupid goddamned LOL forum, I didn't want to catch crap for posting a couple of links and discussing 1) the criminal's liability in the crashes and 2) the utter police ineptitude that led to the crash.

Apparently people in this forum somehow live in even more of a bubble than I do, based on the responses. This was a grisly, brutal thing that by mere fluke spared a ton of other deaths. It happened just north of Indian School Road downtown, at the site of the original Indian School. Everywhere around it is densely populated, including a VA hospital maybe 1/4 mile east at the most.

In case you missed it:

Video from downed helicopter (grisly).

Video from CBS affiliate approaching, which showed the crash in the distance but mostly the two copters hitting the ground.

Pic of the two helicopters falling in mid-air.

The annoying thing, if you can find feed from the NBC affiliate, is that the cops repeatedly botched stopping the guy. There was one time that they had him trapped in a cul-de-sac and he simply drove around one of the cop cars. Then just as the two copters hit each other he successfully switched trucks. The NBC chopper was filming from the opposite side of the downed chopper and rolled footage of a cop having the suspect in his sights but letting him drive off. At the time and for awhile, it wasn't clear to us that letting the guy get away in a new car probably had no effect on the down choppers' fate, but we thought it did and were annoyed by the half-assed attempts by the cops to stop the perp.

And from what I've read around here, he will be charged with manslaughter for the four deaths.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

He certainly has no moral responsibility for their deaths as the crash is not at all a forseeable result of running from the cops.. Has this EVER happened before?

If he has any legal culpability for the crash it is because the law is much too vague and stupid. I remember I once read that if you are on your way to commit a felony (and they can prove it) and you accidently run over somebody who is crossing the highway then it legally counts as having some intent, whether you were driving dangerously or not. Makes no sense to me though.

Also I didn't find those videos at all disturbing, but that pic with the guy free-falling really got to me.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

think of it this way. suppose the guy had been doing something dumb, violating a minor ordinance in his yard and attracting attention to himself, and the news choppers had crashed while covering that. would he still be liable? say, the cops are responding to a domestic disturbance because some guy is out on his porch in a mumu playing prince songs and humping a teddy bear. is it his fault if a news chopper crashes while covering him? what if a passer-by trips and cracks his head open while watching? is there any difference between those cases and this one?

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

yes (in terms of the law at least)

in the case of a car chase, news helicopters following is foreseeable.

in the case of the other stuff, you'd never expect news helicopters.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

NT!,

Those are pretty terrible examples since they will never happen. You might as well say "helicopters covering a jaywalker" or "news choppers on the scene of someone going 15 over". I can tell you that most of the people in this town want this guy to fry, since his actions led to the deaths.

That said, this raises the inevitable question about the stations' responsibility to the public. What was their point of being up there? They can cry public service all they want, but they were there to entertain us and make our midday more exciting. Yay, car chase! Irresponsible journalism IMO, whether the guy is on the hook or not. But every large city seems to do this stuff, and we can't help but watch. Early indications of local feedback seem to indicate no remorse for covering this sort of thing, just a reassessment of protocol for the future.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes (in terms of the law at least)

in the case of a car chase, news helicopters following is foreseeable.

in the case of the other stuff, you'd never expect news helicopters.

[/ QUOTE ]

News helicopters following does not equal them crashing into each other due to crappy pilots/ malfuction. The crash clearly was unforseeable by the perp and reasonable people who trust that there is enough room in the air for a handful of choppers. Whether you can forsee that you might draw news helicopters or not is irrelevant because the crash and deaths were some kind of fluke completely outside of the suspects control. Having news helicopters following you is not dangerous for the helicopters because they have to royally screw up or have a mechanical error in order to die. These are pretty damn rare I imagine.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

tuq,

sort of clumsy examples, yeah. ok, suppose it was something more benign, like two choppers providing aerial footage of the rolling stones at fenway. they could reasonably guess that there might be air coverage there, is it their fault?

the reason i included that a crime was being committed is that it's the legal basis for the argument. in fact, i think for the legal argument to stand it has to be a felony. so that does change things somewhat.

basically i guess i'm not too sold on the idea that your actions, even if they are criminal, make you liable for someone else's voluntary reactions, when your actions did not directly impose risk on the 'victim'. if two cops got killed during the chase, fine.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

tup,

Have any of the articles/coverage discussed how the crash happened? Just sounds a little odd to me, seems like copters would be able to see each other well before they got dangerously close, but who knows, I know jack about flying copters.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

The people who watch these chases on TV are just as liable (if not more so) than the perp.

If crap like this didn't get huge ratings it would never be covered.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The people who watch these chases on TV are just as liable (if not more so) than the perp.

If crap like this didn't get huge ratings it would never be covered.

[/ QUOTE ]

and if people didn't have private property, no one would steal and the police wouldn't have to go after thieves

this argument sucks

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
basically i guess i'm not too sold on the idea that your actions, even if they are criminal, make you liable for someone else's voluntary reactions, when your actions did not directly impose risk on the 'victim'. if two cops got killed during the chase, fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. You know that cops will follow you because they're legally obligated to do so. You "know" that helicopters will follow because that's human nature. That's some pretty shaky ground on which to base a felony conviction.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

I was having lunch @ a restaurant extremely close to the crash when this happened. Tuq mentioned it, but it is worth repeating - the helicopters were very fortunate to have crashed in the park - that area downtown is very populated and right next to Central Ave, one of the busiest streets in Phoenix.

Map of area - Restaurant that I was at

As for liability, I could be wrong, but there is a huge causation issue with charging the fleer w/ murder. Ppl have already mentioned that this was unforseeable, but also pilot error is an intervening cause that likely prevents him from being liable.

Further, felony-murder is out b/c the killing was not "in furtherance of" his escape.

D

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

tuq,

can you clarify what exactly you meant by:
[ QUOTE ]
Apparently people in this forum somehow live in even more of a bubble than I do, based on the responses.

[/ QUOTE ] ? as i am not sure what you meant by this and couldn't draw any conclusion based on the rest of your post. also, do you feel the suspect should be completely liable for the deaths?

all,

i can't think of how to properly phrase the idea im trying to convey, but is there any similarity between this and when high speed police chases have lead to the death of innocent motorists/bystanders?

i seem to recall a few times after high-speed chase deaths there being some sort of outcry that the police pursuing at high speeds is highly dangerous to the general public and not worth it. obviously it is quite different, but should the police share in the culpability?

also, the thought of head news directors in phoenix secretly being like "oh fk yeah awesome! helicopters crashing! huge story!" disgusts me, because it feels pretty true.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

If I was the families id sue the [censored] out of the city of phoenix for liablility because sooo many retarded deaths happen due to needless police chases.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Video from CBS affiliate approaching, which showed the crash in the distance but mostly the two copters hitting the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know its probably too early to be joking about this kind of thing, but the audio on this video cracks me up.

It sounds like the pilot is running a marathon.

Also from looking at that video, it does seem extremely lucky that no one outside of the crew in the two helicopters died.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

NT!, the fact that it occurred because of the crime should be the just cause for the charges. No car theft, no deaths. The helicopters even being there in the first place is pretty stupid though and a sign of the times.

[ QUOTE ]
tup,

Have any of the articles/coverage discussed how the crash happened? Just sounds a little odd to me, seems like copters would be able to see each other well before they got dangerously close, but who knows, I know jack about flying copters.

[/ QUOTE ]
One was on top of the other, rather than being in some sort of formation. It's clear pilot error, one simply dropped or rose onto the other one. Given that it happened right as the perp was switching vehicles, it seems likely that one of the pilots got caught up in the moment and unwittingly drove his chopper into the other one.

Alobar, who should the families sue? The city? They were just doing their jobs. I'd think they'd have a better case against their employers than the city (workplace endangerment or some such, just a guess).

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
tuq,

can you clarify what exactly you meant by:
[ QUOTE ]
Apparently people in this forum somehow live in even more of a bubble than I do, based on the responses.

[/ QUOTE ] ? as i am not sure what you meant by this and couldn't draw any conclusion based on the rest of your post. also, do you feel the suspect should be completely liable for the deaths?

[/ QUOTE ]
I just meant, as much time as my fat ass spends at this site I'm also generally aware of current news headlines thanks to various RSS feeds and checking news sites. By late afternoon yesterday this story was leading on most news outlets online, yet until you made this post today - and subsequent responses - it seems that it was news to a lot of people.

Yeah, I'd like to see the guy held accountable. Use him as an example, whatever. Also, disallow these news outlets from following car chases around from now on, it's pretty tacky and doesn't serve a purpose other than to entertain. But that's not likely to ever happen.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

WTF no way suspect is liable. He didn't ask for coverage by newsmen or anyone else, and we can be certain he didn't want it. Even if he did, he wasn't flying the choppers himself or in any way responsible for the pilots flying safely.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]

NT!, the fact that it occurred because of the crime should be the just cause for the charges. No car theft, no deaths. The helicopters even being there in the first place is pretty stupid though and a sign of the times.

[/ QUOTE ]

poor reasoning. if the cameraman called in sick that day, you get the same result. the crime didn't lead to those guys crashing the chopper - somebody's negligence in flying did. if i chase after an armed robber trying to take his picture and get clipped by a school bus, that's nobody's fault but mine. it's not my legal responsibility to get a picture of him, i made that choice and assumed the risk myself. same with the guys in that chopper.

again, if a cop died in the chase it's 100% different, because they're in the line of duty.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

NT!, hmmmm those are good points. We'll see how it plays out. Yesterday the fuzz clearly stated that they expect charges to be brought, but they aren't the county attorney and it was the heat of the moment. Also, discussing it at happy hour yesterday with various degens (albeit pretty well educated drunks) at a nearby bar, the overwhelming sentiment was that this guy should be held accountable for it.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how big of a difference is it if it were two police helicopters that crashed into each other, as opposed to two news helicopters?

also, is there any liability on the estate of Pilot A for the death of journalist A?

[/ QUOTE ]

People v. Acosta involved two police helicopters. Court found it was foreseeable but remanded to a lower court to decide the issue of malice (general feeling was that he would get involuntary manslaughter).
The reason the collision between two police helicopters is causally connected to a fleeing criminal, but collision between two news helicopters may not be, is because police have a duty to pursue fleeing criminals.
Essentially, the fleeing criminal is 'forcing' the police to follow, but the news cameramen are making a conscious decision whether or not to pursue.
If two police cars crashed, it would be pretty lock + shut. The only reason why helicopter crashes raise a question is because they are out of the ordinary and perhaps not foreseeable by the criminal (Acosta court says it is foreseeable, however).

Given the facts, neither pilot has any criminal liability for the death of the journalists in either helicopter. There may be civil liability under negligence depending on the reason for the crash.

Note: I am certainly not a lawyer, and criminal laws differ in every state, so don't start high speed chases on my account.

edit: I don't think felony murder doctrine applies because it also requires causation (Which I think is the main issue holding back liability for the collision between news helicopters, intervening human actors are a superseding cause).

[/ QUOTE ]

But police are not in fact "forced" to pursue every case or any case, depending on local laws, nor with every type of pursuit available.

Some departments have called off high speed chases, reasoning they cause more danger to the public than letting a criminal escape.

Departments are not forced to use helicopters, either, much less multiple helicopters.

Side issues: If they were, wouldn't it be arguable that departments without helicopters, or with too few, were negligent in their duties to protect the public? Would regular audits of their finances then be necessary or desirable to help clear that up? Would departments with boats be negligent for not using that type of vehicle to maintain visual contact when possible? (Seems to work in James Bond movies.) This is pretty stupid, of course.

It's up to the police departments to decide what sort of resources will be applied to what pursuit, and how much. The criminal has no part in that decision and indeed couldnt possibly know anything about it, so he shouldn't be held liable.

Now, if he creates dangerous conditions on the road through his own driving, sure. But if some cop drives into oncoming traffic of his own volition or is reckless, or bangs his helicopter into a power line, that is out of the alleged criminal's control entirely and so not really the result of his actions.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tuq,

can you clarify what exactly you meant by:
[ QUOTE ]
Apparently people in this forum somehow live in even more of a bubble than I do, based on the responses.

[/ QUOTE ] ? as i am not sure what you meant by this and couldn't draw any conclusion based on the rest of your post. also, do you feel the suspect should be completely liable for the deaths?

[/ QUOTE ]
I just meant, as much time as my fat ass spends at this site I'm also generally aware of current news headlines thanks to various RSS feeds and checking news sites. By late afternoon yesterday this story was leading on most news outlets online, yet until you made this post today - and subsequent responses - it seems that it was news to a lot of people.

Yeah, I'd like to see the guy held accountable. Use him as an example, whatever. Also, disallow these news outlets from following car chases around from now on, it's pretty tacky and doesn't serve a purpose other than to entertain. But that's not likely to ever happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd hate to see him charged for this and think it would set a dangerous precedent.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

Blarg,

I'm about the most Libertarian cracker at heart you'll ever find, and even I don't see the dangerous precedent here, nor a slippery slope. If you don't want to risk being charged with happenstance deaths like these, then don't lead police on a pursuit. Seems simple enough.

Re: phoenix helicopter crash - death liability?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

I'm about the most Libertarian cracker at heart you'll ever find, and even I don't see the dangerous precedent here, nor a slippery slope. If you don't want to risk being charged with happenstance deaths like these, then don't lead police on a pursuit. Seems simple enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

This deserves reiterating. Sure the pilots and the cops had a role in this accident as well, but look at the goals they were pursuing:
Pilots - help perform the public service of reporting the news;
Cops - arrest a criminal;
Criminal - steal a car.

One of these things is not like the other, and it's completely fair that we treat people who commit dangerous felonies with less leniency than people going about their lawful business.