commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

Decent commerce 40/80 game, running 8h.

UTG+1, a passive but not terrible player raises. Earlier he open limped UTG and I Isolation-raised from the button and an observer commented "that guy limped utg! That's like a 3bet! and you still raised!" That's certainly an exaggeration, but he has not been getting out of line with his pfrs.

A 2p2er who I know well and who knows me well CCs on the CO. He's been playing pretty solid for the last 3 hours, is stuck a bit but isn't tilting. He's gotten out of line a couple times (3bet some cheese vs a lag, got caught 3barreling once) but that's it. I call 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, utg+1 bets, CO calls. I c/r, utg+1 3bets, CO now calls 2 cold, and I call planning on c/r'ing the turn.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, utg+1 bets, CO now c/r's. Hero ...?

What do we think of how the hand has gone down so far? What's our plan?

Surf

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

you messed up the turn action. the CO couldn't have checked raised the turn, he was bet into.

does commerce have a 4 or 5 bet cap? if its 5 not making it 4 on the flop is a sin. if not, i still think capping is best but whatever, mix it up.

3 bet the turn. you have 2nd set, 2nd set is really hard to beat. you have also underrepresented your hand so far.

EDIT: one last thing, literally the only two hands a solid CO could have that beats you is JTs (but not likely clubs) and 7c6c. 76c has to be discounted because he will find a raise the second time around almost always, plus he likely wouldn't call with it preflop. there isn't close to enough evidence based on his betting that he holds one of those particular hands, i really hope you didn't flat call. similarly, UTG+1 could have QQ and thats about it, and he certainly hasn't narrowed his range down that much from his initial raise preflop. not really room for discussion on the turn imo.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

I like a coldcall and donk any river board pair, heart, or club. Basically I think you want only one bet to go in on the river (unless you boat but he will not give you excess action with a straight in this case anyway) and he will have a hard time raising on these river cards whether he has a straight or set and the straight is far more likely.

I check/cry call a brick.

-DeathDonkey

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

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What do we think of how the hand has gone down so far?


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I think CO coldcalling preflop is not good.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

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I like a coldcall and donk any river board pair, heart, or club. Basically I think you want only one bet to go in on the river (unless you boat but he will not give you excess action with a straight in this case anyway) and he will have a hard time raising on these river cards whether he has a straight or set and the straight is far more likely.

I check/cry call a brick.

-DeathDonkey

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Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

If CO is a good player, JTs is about the only hand that makes sense for him. However, his pre-flop cold-call makes me wonder if he really is that good. Either way I'd just call the turn because UTG+1 seems like the kind of player that would get frustrated and call down with a big pair if it's one bet at a time.

I would consider bet/calling any river if I thought CO could be making a fancy play or have misplayed pf and flop. Otherwise what DD says.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

There probably isn't a hand he should have here but if there is one it's 88.

Also just cap the flop and get one more full bet in there. You can still check the turn if you want because of the two clubs but I'd just raise pound pound.

-Michael

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

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you messed up the turn action. the CO couldn't have checked raised the turn, he was bet into.


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Sorry about that, I worded it incorrectly. CO obv couldn't c/r in position, he just conventional raised, the action is all correct.

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does commerce have a 4 or 5 bet cap? if its 5 not making it 4 on the flop is a sin. if not, i still think capping is best but whatever, mix it up.


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4bet cap i think multiway, unlimited HU.

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3 bet the turn. you have 2nd set, 2nd set is really hard to beat. you have also underrepresented your hand so far.

EDIT: one last thing, literally the only two hands a solid CO could have that beats you is JTs (but not likely clubs) and 7c6c. 76c has to be discounted because he will find a raise the second time around almost always, plus he likely wouldn't call with it preflop. there isn't close to enough evidence based on his betting that he holds one of those particular hands, i really hope you didn't flat call. similarly, UTG+1 could have QQ and thats about it, and he certainly hasn't narrowed his range down that much from his initial raise preflop. not really room for discussion on the turn imo.

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Right. The plan was to c/r the field on the turn, but the CO's pf CC was certainly confusing, and the turn c/r makes JT look possible but he really shouldn't be CC'ing that pf.

Surf

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

i think you have the nuts. he likely has K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

When CO cc's pf and then again on the flop, I think you have to cap/4 bet it and then bet/3 bet the turn.

As played, I'm thinking 3 bet the turn. But the truth is being there and knowing the players makes a big difference between calling and raising it.

How would CO play AcQc pf? If UTG is as tight as you say, does he just cc? I'm guessing he'd 3 bet AcKc pf.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

I cap the flop multiway every single time on this board, and lead a card like a queen, but go for a check raise when an A, K, or another under rolls off.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

That flop is way to draw heavy to stop, just bet and raise until you think you might be beat, then call down. On the turn I think you should 3bet, he can and should have lots and lots of hands that aren't JT here.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

the three hands that make most sense for 2p2er villain is KQcc, QJcc, JTcc and *possibly* QTcc, though i would lean heavily towards KQcc, since *if he's solid, yada yada yada* that *should* be his most likely hand.

i'd go ahead and 3-bet the turn and start sniffling a little if the villain caps it. but it would take two different acts of aggression on the river for me to ever fold it here, it's just a matter of how much i want to pay (or charge) for a showdown, and i think 3-betting the turn is fine.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

Right; cutoff is representing a flush draw or straight draw. Don't fool around on the flop--make him pay and pay and pay.

And pay again when an irrelevant card comes on the turn.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

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I call planning on c/r'ing the turn.



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no. there (a) are too many draws on that board and (b) too many cards that can freeze up the turn action. you flopped the joint. go bonkers.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

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That flop is way to draw heavy to stop, just bet and raise until you think you might be beat, then call down. On the turn I think you should 3bet, he can and should have lots and lots of hands that aren't JT here.

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i think this is bad. there is not a single hand that CO can have here that he has played well preflop, but the most likely is JTs. we have the pfr murdered, so let him call the turn drawing to likely 2 outs and hopefully we fill up on the river.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

what a donkish 2p2er this guys is to come in with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or QQ AQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] can't imagine overplaying AQ like that but in this situ, i'd re-re-re-raise and get utg+1 to lay down some bigarse overpair and take it to the river and c/c and be disgusted. you might even put in one more raise on a safe river in case he might be doggystyling with 88.

the real story
 

I was actually the BB in this hand. Surf was the CO. It was just more interesting to post from my side of it. Anyway, before I post what really happened, I want to hear what hands people think surf (the CO here) could 4 bet the turn with. That should help us figure out a plan for the rest of the hand. Keep in mind we know each other really well and play a very similar style.

Re: the real story
 

Well when someone like you coldcalls preflop I automatically think you have exactly 77-99, but his flop+turn play makes me think he would be coldcalling sooted broadways. I am leaning away from big clubs with a Q because it would make sense to raise the flop when he has a realistic chance of having tons of outs, not on the turn when he hits after the other two of you have put a lot of action. If he had 88 then I think he needs to get aggressive on this flop because he doesn't want his customer to get scared on many different turn cards. So a set makes no sense. Broadway clubs with a Q don't make sense. So he must have one of the other three JTs combos I think.

Your only play can be to call and hope the board pairs and also hope the passive guy doesn't have QQ. I really hate folding the river UI because the pot is so big, so I probably sit there for 30 seconds knowing I'm about to make a bad call before finally convincing myself I could see 88 or a really weird AA.

A lot of what to do really depends on what you think Surf is coldcalling with. IMO coldcalling with sooted broadways here is pretty bad RIO. I don't think 77-99 are quite as bad in terms of getting there and getting pounded, but you will still spend a bet or so postflop before finding out you are not best. I personally think the vast majority of hands he is likely to choose to get involved with here are not worth playing. If everything I said above is off and he is coldcalling with like AQ/TT only then ignore me. I never coldcall without callers between so I can't really speak from experience.

BTW if you check/3bet the turn then I think his 4betting range needs to be JT and that's it. I think coldcalling with QQ preflop is awful so I'll pretend he can't have that.

Also for your hand I think the best play is to cap the flop and then c/r safe turn cards but perhaps your cap will be seen as too strong and the play would be better for someone with a crackfiend type image. If you don't think you can get away with cap and then c/r the best play is to cap and keep betting until someone tells you that your hand is not best.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

More likely he coldcalled with 88 or 55 than JT don't you think?

3 bet(UTG won't fold his overpair), call down from a cap. Unless of course you fill on the river, then I'd lead.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

guys, coldcalling with KQs in this spot isn't really as bad as you guys make it out to be.

Re: the real story
 

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BTW if you check/3bet the turn then I think his 4betting range needs to be JT and that's it. I think coldcalling with QQ preflop is awful so I'll pretend he can't have that.

Also for your hand I think the best play is to cap the flop and then c/r safe turn cards but perhaps your cap will be seen as too strong and the play would be better for someone with a crackfiend type image. If you don't think you can get away with cap and then c/r the best play is to cap and keep betting until someone tells you that your hand is not best.

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A few points here worth discussing. If he will only 4 bet JT which I think is 100% correct, is that an argument to just call the turn or to go ahead and check 3 bet?

I had a much more detailed read than Surf had on the initial pfr. He had so far played slightly to loose with his limps but definitely too tight with his raises. When he 3 bet the flop I knew he loved his hand and would bet any turn. However, I also knew that he was a little bit weak and not that good a hand reader. So, the cap the flop then CR the turn play was suboptimal here. If this was the 1/2 than I like that line a lot since they play so fearless/spewy and will put you on a draw that jammed and then missed.

I had a pretty tough time putting surf on a hand but he sure looked like he was drawing and the pfr sure looked like he was betting so getting to CR the turn was way too juicy to pass up being the big street whore that I am.

BTW, I had seen the initial pfr to make some pretty ugly calls with weakish draws getting inadequate prices so him calling 2 more here with an overpair was not that unlikley. I was kinda getting the feeling he wanted to showdown his big pair so he could show the table how unlucky he was.

Re: the real story
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was actually the BB in this hand. Surf was the CO. It was just more interesting to post from my side of it. Anyway, before I post what really happened, I want to hear what hands people think surf (the CO here) could 4 bet the turn with. That should help us figure out a plan for the rest of the hand. Keep in mind we know each other really well and play a very similar style.

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Cut off could have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], or 88.

Re: the real story
 

Surfs cold calling range includes 88 and 55. Don't forget that he's been playing a lot of NL lately and might be used to cold calling w/them regularly. These are hand he might certainly call the flop w/and raise the turn. Another factor to consider is what percentage of the time the initialy pfr folds to your check 3bet since he's certainly calling the raise w/his likely overpair. If he's calling your 3 bet you can go ahead and do it more often b/c even if you get capped you've still got 25% equity getting 2:1 on your money. Not great but you factor in the times that surf raise w/out a strait you've still got good equity to go ahead and 3bet. However, if Surfs read on pfr is that he's too tight to raise light and too loose to fold a big pair then his turn raise could almost certainly mean JT and calling might be the best option.

Overall I think calling and donking a safe river might be the way to go as surf won't value bet hands like AcQc or KcQc if the river bricks off. On top of that check 3betting the river such a strong play that it will likely drive out the initial pfr.

Re: the real story
 

88 or 55... maybe he was taking the same line you were with your set... you said you guys play very similar, he has gotten out of line a couple times, and maybe he likes his posistion.

I think he's got the under-set.

10-J or 6-7 for two bets preflop from a 2+2 that knows what's up against an UTG raiser just doesn't make sense.

turn action
 

So I went ahead with the plan and check 3 bet. UTG + 1 folds A9o face up to my 3 bet (yes that hand was way out of character for him to have but at least my read that he would bet the turn was right. Surf 4 bets pretty much in tempo. I call and the river is a Td I think so the board is 9h8c5cQhTd. I check, surf bets. My turn and I do what?

Re: turn action
 

Throw a bet in the trash can aka the pot and tell them to write "I flopped a set" on your tombstone. Honestly you should really fold but when the pot is 500 bets I don't have it in me.

My biggest leak I think is not actually utilizing reads/obvious information and folding marginal hands that are winners while paying off with "big" hands that are clear losers, so I might not be the one to listen to in this spot.

Re: turn action
 

RESULTS? I'm bitting at the bit... it sucks BTW... but if you fold the river that's probably a mistake. Especially since you noted that this notable has gotten out of line a couple times during the session... just hope this is one of those times.

Re: turn action
 

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RESULTS? I'm bitting at the bit... it sucks BTW... but if you fold the river that's probably a mistake. Especially since you noted that this notable has gotten out of line a couple times during the session... just hope this is one of those times.

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When did I say that surf has been out of line?

Think about this hand from surf's perspective for a second and narrow down my range. I CR a tight player and a very good player on the flop. Then I check/3 bet the turn when the flush draw misses but the most likely hand I could have combinatorically hits (JT). My line has to look so super strong yet he doesn't care and 4 bets me like his life depends on it. Why exactly is that? Does he think that 55 or 88 is the nuts? In addition, if he has 55 or 88 how sick will it be when he gets his arse 5 bet?

Re: turn action
 

Could he have 55, and think you would fold 88 and 99 to his line? His view of your range could well be 88, 99, JT. If he thinks you could find a fold with the sets, his play is optimal, no?

Re: turn action
 

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Could he have 55, and think you would fold 88 and 99 to his line? His view of your range could well be 88, 99, JT. If he thinks you could find a fold with the sets, his play is optimal, no?

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Given the fact that JT more than twice as likley as 88 and 99 combined, do you really think this is an optimal strategy? Does he ever expect me to fold 88 and 99 in this size pot?

Re: turn action
 

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Could he have 55, and think you would fold 88 and 99 to his line? His view of your range could well be 88, 99, JT. If he thinks you could find a fold with the sets, his play is optimal, no?

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Given the fact that JT more than twice as likley as 88 and 99 combined, do you really think this is an optimal strategy? Does he ever expect me to fold 88 and 99 in this size pot?

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4-betting to get 88/99 to fold is ridiculous. and not that it matters, but i'm wondering if you would have called with JTo preflop? if not, there's only 4 combos of JT

Re: turn action
 

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Could he have 55, and think you would fold 88 and 99 to his line? His view of your range could well be 88, 99, JT. If he thinks you could find a fold with the sets, his play is optimal, no?

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Given the fact that JT more than twice as likley as 88 and 99 combined, do you really think this is an optimal strategy? Does he ever expect me to fold 88 and 99 in this size pot?

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4-betting to get 88/99 to fold is ridiculous. and not that it matters, but i'm wondering if you would have called with JTo preflop? if not, there's only 4 combos of JT

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Should I be folding JTo? I think I would usually call getting 5.5:1 although I think I fold QTo,KTo, and ATo. Not sure if that is right. I know I should take out some hands from the pokerstove since Surf coldcalled but too lazy.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.663% 36.59% 02.09% 12856778808 733473764.33 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 20.773% 20.44% 00.34% 7181788639 119952591.33 { JTo }
Hand 2: 40.564% 38.50% 02.09% 13525130994 733120025.33 { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, AQo+ }

Re: turn action
 

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RESULTS? I'm bitting at the bit... it sucks BTW... but if you fold the river that's probably a mistake. Especially since you noted that this notable has gotten out of line a couple times during the session... just hope this is one of those times.

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When did I say that surf has been out of line?

Think about this hand from surf's perspective for a second and narrow down my range. I CR a tight player and a very good player on the flop. Then I check/3 bet the turn when the flush draw misses but the most likely hand I could have combinatorically hits (JT). My line has to look so super strong yet he doesn't care and 4 bets me like his life depends on it. Why exactly is that? Does he think that 55 or 88 is the nuts? In addition, if he has 55 or 88 how sick will it be when he gets his arse 5 bet?

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you said in your original description that he wasn't tilting but had gotten out of line a couple times and got caught firing on all 3 streets... maybe this is one of those times and he is trying to move you off your hand.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

Posting blind.
I like the attempt to C/R the turn. You have solid position relative to the field. I think the one concern we should have is that if UTG+1 is aware that CO is a solid player, his coldcallx2 should set off alarms, but that won't stop UTG+1 from betting TT+.

I call this turn. UTG+1's only holding that we are worried about is QQ and we're not pushing him off of it anyways. He's either dead money or crushing us, so there's no reason to push him out and CO has enough holdings that we are ahead of (98s/88) that we need to get to showdown. My plan depends on whether UTG+1 folds now, but I am c/c most rivers and leading if it's 3-handed and a board pair+flush comes.

I struggle in these spots too.

Edit: Meh. Right after I posted this, but before I'm about to read the topic, it occured to me that UTG+1 might also have AKhh/AKcc/AQcc, which we would love to 3-bet. I'm torn. Gunna read. Enlgihten me, folks.

Re: commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er
 

surfdoc... looks like this one is going to die... how did the story end?

RESULTS
 

So, here is what happened. I 3 bet the turn and when Surf 4 bet I was really sure I was up against the nuts. I planned on donking a rivered boat and folding unimproved. The river was so scary and he slides a bet out in tempo. Now I have all the confirmation that I need and muck 99 face up. I normally don't do this but in this case it felt right for a couple of reasons. First and most importantly was that the players at the table knew we were friends and I didn't want them to think I jammed up the turn and then folded for 1 bet as some sort of collusion to push the EP player off his hand. Secondly, I wanted Surf to know ho badly I owned him. He swears that he was checking behind his JT on a paired river so that he could own me.

Now, here is the funny (not to me but nevertheless funny) part. Surf is a live noobie. I have been leaning on him pretty hard after each session to close up his tellbox and avoid some mistakes. It turns out that he was eating when the initial raise came in and didn't see it. When he put out 2 bets he thought he was open raising from the CO which explains why he can have JT here. He says he would never have played it suited or not against this guys raise and I agree. Anyway, earlier in the week he had done stuff like this and been all embarassed and made a big scene at the table but I explained to him how important it is to avoid stuff like that and not to talk so much at the table. So, basically I got bad beat by my own instruction. The whole hand turns into a beat that was never supposed to happen when I flop a set of 9s against A9 and win a huge pot.

As far as the turn and river play, I think it is correct to 3 bet the turn since I can only get 4 bet by the nuts and I can get away from it on the river. If this was against some other commerce goof then the hand plays a bit differently.

Re: RESULTS
 

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Now, here is the funny (not to me but nevertheless funny) part. Surf is a live noobie. I have been leaning on him pretty hard after each session to close up his tellbox and avoid some mistakes. It turns out that he was eating when the initial raise came in and didn't see it. When he put out 2 bets he thought he was open raising from the CO which explains why he can have JT here. He says he would never have played it suited or not against this guys raise and I agree. Anyway, earlier in the week he had done stuff like this and been all embarassed and made a big scene at the table but I explained to him how important it is to avoid stuff like that and not to talk so much at the table. So, basically I got bad beat by my own instruction. The whole hand turns into a beat that was never supposed to happen when I flop a set of 9s against A9 and win a huge pot.

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This was pretty funny, especially because i might not even raise JTo from the CO in this game (it was that crazy) but i picked up on a folding tell from the button. Also i slid the 8 chips out there like it was exactly what I meant to do (thanks surfdoc for the instruction, haha) and even after i noticed the UTG raise I was pretty proud that i didn't act startled or anything.

Surf