Folding AKo Preflop
 

Playing 8 handed (about 35 players left) in a live tournament full of bad players. Blinds 200-400, average player has about t5500.

I have a very tight image, t8000, and in EP get dealt
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I raise to 1200

CO goes all in for 2100
BB goes all in and has me covered.

I go into the tank and decide that the CO likely has A-rag and the BB has a high PP and I muck the hand.

Would anyone else muck this hand and was it a bad move or just marginal?

Results in white:
<font color="white">My read was close I was against A7s and TT, Tens hold and would have held against me. </font>

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

Against 2 players you're most likely flipping at best. I don't think folding is that bad. Someone with more tourney experience could answer better.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

AK is a great hand because it has a lot of fold equity. you can reraise and get people off middle pairs and such preflop, knowing that if they do make a gutsy call you're rarely in bad shape. Thats why sometimes i like to limp with them in early position and try to reraise people off their hand without committing a huge amount of chips myself.


Not quite sure how to calculate the odds myself since there will be a side pot between you and the BB. I think you are getting the right price or close to it even though one of your aces is gone. It's basically even money and you've already committed 1200.

If you think the players are bad and you have a tight image then you can definitely exploit that and not have to gamble here in a coinflip.

I don't think either decision is wrong.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

With BB's going all-in after your raise and CO's all-in, I can easily fold this hand. Why have a coin flip now, especially when you think one of your outs is taken? Not worth my tourney life.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

With a raise and a re-raise after your original bet... easy fold. It's not worth it to risk everything for a coin flip. Good lay down.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

I disagree, call here. CO's range is huge. Button is isolating with a lot of hands, prob 99+ AK/AQ. There is t5400 in the pot and it cost t6800 to call. And you have AK. You play to win the game. Call.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

I think it may have been a bad play because I'm leaving myself with an M around 10, only had to call 6800 into a 1150 pot, I felt it was nearly a flip, and since the average player's M is below 10 it would turn into a pushfest very quickly as the blinds increase.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

I would definitely also consider whether our re-raising friend is doing so BECAUSE you have such a tight image - he might be trying to make you do exactly what you did - Lay down a hand that could draw against him (not saying that this means you should call but I’d definitely include this in your hand reading process).

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it may have been a bad play because I'm leaving myself with an M around 10, only had to call 6800 into a 1150 pot, I felt it was nearly a flip, and since the average player's M is below 10 it would turn into a pushfest very quickly as the blinds increase.

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[ QUOTE ]
I think it may have been a bad play because I'm leaving myself with an M around 10, only had to call 6800 into a 1150 pot, I felt it was nearly a flip, and since the average player's M is below 10 it would turn into a pushfest very quickly as the blinds increase.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation how long was it before the blinds were to increase? You said you are in EP which means you have a big blind soon and with the fold you only have 6800 (17 big blinds at 200/400 is still more then enough to maneuver with).

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

The blinds were moving to 400-800 then 500-1000 at 20 minute levles, so they are going up very quickly. I should have mentioned that in the OP.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

How many places pay?

Meh. Looks like a call to me, you're not a 2:1 dog vs both their ranges.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
The blinds were moving to 400-800 then 500-1000 at 20 minute levles, so they are going up very quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]Wow, 20 min levels LIVE? You HAVE to call now. It's not even remotely close.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

I'm undecided as to whether calling is the correct play here. If you fold you still have 6800 which is still sitting around 10 big blinds once they do go up - You're going to need to make a move quite soon but AKo is not the time to do it when you put the villian on a pocket pair. Do you feel that the villian could have KK or AA (if so this is an autofold)?

At best you're holding the best overcards although it is much more likely that you're no better then a 45% equity favorite to win this hand given that you think the villian could be holding a good pocket pair.

Remember that you're also been raised all-in when you have a tight image for an amount that can be quite easily called in many situations - If you think that your opponent is aware of this then it is most definitely a fold!

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
At best you're holding the best overcards although it is much more likely that you're no better then a 45% equity favorite to win this hand given that you think the villian could be holding a good pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]That's why you call. With 20 min levels and prob ~8-12 hands per level you cannot ever fold AK in this spot. You can't really 'outplay' opponents or 'find a better spot' when the blinds reach critical mass. CO is shoving 22+, two broadway, any Ace. With his t2100 in the pot this is a snapcall. Winning this pot puts you in position to coast to final table. Losing it is no big deal, you made the right play.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

Villian 3bet AI PF against me while ago with AA and showed, so KK or AA could be a possible.

Even with a more normal blind structure, I was thinking it was a bad - marginal play, folding AK PF vs a shortstacked table when getting 2:1.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At best you're holding the best overcards although it is much more likely that you're no better then a 45% equity favorite to win this hand given that you think the villian could be holding a good pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]That's why you call. With 20 min levels and prob ~8-12 hands per level you cannot ever fold AK in this spot. You can't really 'outplay' opponents or 'find a better spot' when the blinds reach critical mass. CO is shoving 22+, two broadway, any Ace. With his t2100 in the pot this is a snapcall. Winning this pot puts you in position to coast to final table. Losing it is no big deal, you made the right play.

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Interesting perspective, out of curiosity how do you think it would apply in a ring table scenario? Personally I would make the laydown should the same situation arise outside of a tournament but I'm also very interested in what others think about this.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

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Interesting perspective, out of curiosity how do you think it would apply in a ring table scenario?

[/ QUOTE ]If I were playing 200-400NL with only $8000 (lol), and for some strange reason a person was playing with 5bb's... instacall. You'd have to change the structure for this to be a fold. Or we need to know 100% that button is only pushing with AA and KK.

OP- How did rest of tournament go after fold, did you make it much further?

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
BB goes all in and has me covered.


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I think you still have enough chips to let BB go heads up with the short stack. He probably has a pocket pair, or AT-AK. I would want to fold and wait a little longer.

If I had less chips, like 3-9 times the big blind, I'd insta call. But here, I think you can fold.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB goes all in and has me covered.


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I think you still have enough chips to let BB go heads up with the short stack. He probably has a pocket pair, or AT-AK. I would want to fold and wait a little longer.

If I had less chips, like 3-9 times the big blind, I'd insta call. But here, I think you can fold.

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This is way too consevative for a fast live tournament (maybe 8-10 hands per blind level). In 15-20 hands he's going to be so low on chips as to have nearly zero fold equity on any push. There absolutely no logic behind folding here. In this fast a tournament, you have to go hyper-aggro at 20-25 big blinds. Waiting for big hands until you have 10 BB or less is suicide.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

Had you made this sort of raise and folded to this amount of action previously?
What was your perception of the BB?

If hes your regular player i could fold this.
If hes one of the better players i would have to consider that he might be using your tight image together with the fact that he recently did this to you with AA and figure he could well be isolating lite here.

before i talked myself into the above and put it in i would be considering the rest of the tables stacks and whether there were opportunities (weak players) i felt confident i could still exploit if i folded this.

Re: Folding AKo Preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting perspective, out of curiosity how do you think it would apply in a ring table scenario?

[/ QUOTE ]If I were playing 200-400NL with only $8000 (lol), and for some strange reason a person was playing with 5bb's... instacall. You'd have to change the structure for this to be a fold. Or we need to know 100% that button is only pushing with AA and KK.

OP- How did rest of tournament go after fold, did you make it much further?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't make it much further, limped UTG later on with AA, there were no pot that went unraised until this one and most players were bad to not notice the UTG limp. SB completes, BB checks flop is A34, I push and run into 25o.