A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

The following recently happened in a game of pool at a bar. Two of my friends were playing a game of 8-ball. I was not there.

Friend 1 was down to his 8-ball only. He had no shot and just hit the Q-ball "where ever". Friend 2 says the game is over and tells friend 1 since he didn't hit the 8-ball he loses.

The Q-ball was still on the table. The 8-ball was also still on the table (as well as some of friend 2's balls). What's the call here?

1) Game over. Friend 2 wins.
2) Friend 1 committed a "table scratch" and friend 2 gets "ball in hand".
3) Game continues as normal. Friend 2's shot.
4) Other. (Please explain)

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

Unless the game is for money I think #3 is standard, but I think the actual rule is #2.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

1. Billiards.
2. Cue ball.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

1

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

They were playing for drinks.

And there is a correct answer according to Wikipedia and another website covering 8-ball rules.

I know the correct answer (I didn't before looking it up). I'm curious if this is just one of those rules that "average joe" is often confused about. So, if you don't know just tell me what you think. Don't look up the answer and then post.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

I would choose option 2. I consider this a scratch, which would make it ball in hand. However Friend 1 would only lose the game immediately if he made the 8 ball in the wrong pocket.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
1

[/ QUOTE ]

But the best way to do it in a casual game is to have player 1 bring one of his balls back up and then player 2 continues playing.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

deac,

In most bar games it's either #3 or #2 behind the head string.

The official rule: "4.19 PLAYING THE 8-BALL
When the 8-ball is the legal object ball, a scratch or foul is not loss of game if the 8-ball is not pocketed or jumped from the table. Incoming player has cue ball in hand. Note: A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence."

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournam.../rls_8bl.shtml

So the official rule is #2 w/ cue ball anywhere on the table.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
They were playing for drinks.

And there is a correct answer according to Wikipedia and another website covering 8-ball rules.

I know the correct answer (I didn't before looking it up). I'm curious if this is just one of those rules that "average joe" is often confused about. So, if you don't know just tell me what you think. Don't look up the answer and then post.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's number 2. This is one of those rules where casual players think it's #3, and bangers in bars think it's #1, I'd imagine.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
deac,

In most bar games it's either #3 or #2 behind the head string.

The official rule: "4.19 PLAYING THE 8-BALL
When the 8-ball is the legal object ball, a scratch or foul is not loss of game if the 8-ball is not pocketed or jumped from the table. Incoming player has cue ball in hand. Note: A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence."

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournam.../rls_8bl.shtml

So the official rule is #2 w/ cue ball anywhere on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Wikipedia.

[ QUOTE ]
Once all the player's object balls are pocketed, he/she may attempt to sink the 8 ball. To win, the player must first call which pocket they plan to sink the 8 ball into. If the 8 ball is shot into the wrong pocket or a foul (see below) occurs, the player loses. Otherwise, the player's turn is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

All,

I find it a little hard to believe those of you saying "1" have ever played pool before in a bar or pool hall.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
All,

I find it a little hard to believe those of you saying "1" have ever played pool before in a bar or pool hall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 1 is the "official" rule, even though it's probably never played that way in casual competition.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

I'm surprised ball in hand is the correct answer for 8-ball. I always thought it was behind that one mark, which apparently according to El D is called the "head string". I thought ball in hand was a 9-ball rule.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

I'm barely a recreational pool player so I, honestly, had no idea before looking it up but was pretty sure it was one of the three options I listed in the OP. Thanks for weighing in on this, everyone.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

It's #3 in most bars, but usually some local will know if the rule is different.

Most bars never do ball-in-hand for 8-ball.

Everyone understands there really is no such thing as rules to bar pool outside the local custom at that bar right? Lol at the idea of bringing up Wikipedia in your next bar pool dispute.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

Jasper,

"I think 1 is the "official" rule"

You are wrong. It is also weird that you wrote that after quoting my post with BCA rules cited.

FWIW, here are IPT rules:

"d. If a player scratches or jumps the cue ball so that it comes to rest off the playing surface of the table while playing the eight ball, it is a loss of game. Not making a legal hit on the eight ball, but leaving the cue ball on the table, is a Ball in Hand foul- not an automatic loss of game."

http://www.internationalpooltour.com...es/default.asp

You do know that anyone can edit Wikipedia, right?

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised ball in hand is the correct answer for 8-ball. I always thought it was behind that one mark, which apparently according to El D is called the "head string". I thought ball in hand was a 9-ball rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I've never played ball-in-hand in 8-ball. Only behind the line (or head string or whatever) on scratches.

BTW, I've seen both scratch and play on in this situation. However, I tend to see play on because I'm usually playing with people who make an attempt at the ball instead of being a dick and taking other shots.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jasper,

"I think 1 is the "official" rule"

You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

There may be an "official rule" in bar pool, but it never ever ever matters. Ever. Local custom trumps all.

A prime example would be if you make one solid on the break - are you solids or is it still open. I've played pool in at least 200 bars in my life and it's roughly split down the middle.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

DKS, tuq:

While ball-in-hand is definitely the rule for many 8-ball situations, I can't think of any bar game I've played where it was ball in hand - it's always ball in hand behind the head string.

However, many pool hall 8-ball games are played with official ball-in-hand rules.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

dear god.

This thread is a perfect example of why you should always confirm whatever rules you're playing under if there's anything at stake.

Bar rules are often not even close to real rules; anything from "omg you miscue, GAME OVER" to "HAHAHA SCRATCH ON BREAK YOU LOSE".

This case its an obvious table scratch. Then, as Diablo said, its either ball in hand if you're playing that way, or in the 'kitchen'. None of this matters tho if people are playing with rules they have in their heads without checking with each other...

btw tuq, ball in hand is often the result of a scratch in amateur leagues like APA and BCA, but often NOT a rule when playing in a bar setting...

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone understands there really is no such thing as rules to bar pool outside whatever the local custom at that bar is right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. However, when both people are from different states and no rules were set in stone prior to beginning play (aside from possibly "no slop")... then this situation arises... an argument begins... and a bet is made on who is correct... what else can you turn to besides official rules.

I don't think you can assume everyone plays by the same rules. They should be established prior to beginning the game. I think if anything is left unsaid it should default to the official rules.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jasper,

"I think 1 is the "official" rule"

You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the governing body. The APA rules count a scratch on the 8 as loss of game. The rulesets have differences. I go with the BCA on these matters, as the APA is a joke, but someone might think that they matter.

EDIT: Grammar

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All,

I find it a little hard to believe those of you saying "1" have ever played pool before in a bar or pool hall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 1 is the "official" rule, even though it's probably never played that way in casual competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never seen #1 used. It's also a preposterous rule as a good opponent that's behind on balls can often leave you in a position where you only have a low % shot of avoiding a table scratch.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

suzzer,

"There may be an "official rule" in bar pool, but it never ever ever matters. Ever. Local custom trumps all."

Agree completely, hence my original answer: "In most bar games it's either #3 or #2 behind the head string."

My response to Jasper simply refers to "official" 8-ball rules, which as you correctly say, generally don't apply to bar games.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone understands there really is no such thing as rules to bar pool outside whatever the local custom at that bar is right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. However, when both people are from different states and no rules were set in stone prior to beginning play (aside from possibly "no slop")... then this situation arises... an argument begins... and a bet is made on who is correct... what else can you turn to besides official rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, you ask the bartender or regulars. If bartender doesn't know and there are no regulars then I guess you could think about official rules. I'd rather just do it over at that point and agree on the rules beforehand.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
DKS, tuq:

While ball-in-hand is definitely the rule for many 8-ball situations, I can't think of any bar game I've played where it was ball in hand - it's always ball in hand behind the head string.

However, many pool hall 8-ball games are played with official ball-in-hand rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

This meshes with my experience. I've never played ball in hand on scratches in bars, and have often done so in pool halls. Bar pool typically has its own minor variations on the rules depending on where you are; where I used to play, one of the regulars eventually put a list of rules on the wall that became the standard, and it tends to be how I conceive of bar pool. (EDIT: Upon closer reading of the thread, I appear to be the third or fourth person with this insight. But no matter, it's still the truth.)

We did play that a scratch where the 8 isn't pocketed was a loss, but only scratches where you sank or launched the cue, not table scratches. I don't think I've seen anybody play with table scratches if they aren't playing ball in hand; you're just generally thought of as a bitch and lacking a certain manliness if you're not trying to take a genuine shot each turn.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

it's 2, but house rules usually play over the real rules of 8-ball, sadly.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

Duke,

APA rules: "Note: A player attempting to shoot the 8-ball but missing it has fouled, resulting in ball-in-hand for his opponent. This is NOT loss of game."

http://poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

That makes APA, IPT, and BCA (which I also consider the authoritative ruleset) all agreeing on the rule.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

Just a link to the APA rules that specify a scratch on the 8 as loss of game:

BCA Rule book

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jasper,

"I think 1 is the "official" rule"

You are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the governing body. The APA rules count a scratch on the 8 as loss of game. I go with the BCA on these matters, but the rulesets have differences, as the APA is a joke, but someone might think that they matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.
APA Rules:
http://www.celeris.com/games/vp3/help/pages/rules.html
Relevant rules:
Under Eight Ball Rules - Loss of Game
- scratching when playing the eight ball

Under General Rules - Fouls
Scratch – Pocketed the cue ball.
Ball Off Table - Hit a ball off the table. If a ball jumps onto the rail and returns to the table, there is no penalty.
Bad Hit - In eight ball and the low ball first family of games, the cue ball contacts a non-target ball before a legal target ball. For all games, the cue ball does not contact a ball.
No Rail - If no ball is pocketed, and at least one ball does not contact a cushion after the cue ball contacts an object ball. This usually comes up during safety (defensive) play or when the shot is played too softly.

Note, under APA rules, "scratching" is given a very specific defintion, namely pocketing the cue ball. No other foul is grounds for loss of game.

edit: [ QUOTE ]
Just a link to the APA rules that specify a scratch on the 8 as loss of game:

[/ QUOTE ]
The rules state quite specifically on page 9 that failure to hit the 8 ball is not a loss.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

The weird thing on all this is that you never see 8-ball on TV so you never see official rules. I've always wondered what the official 8-ball rack should look like. Here's how I do it (O = solid, I = stripe):

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
O
O I
I 8 O
O I O I
I O I I O
</pre><hr />

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

suzzer,

"Wrong, you ask the regulars."

That's called a game scratch here. Both players have to leave the table. OK, Joe and Steve, you guys are up!

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
The weird thing on all this is that you never see 8-ball on TV so you never see official rules. I've always wondered what the official 8-ball rack should look like. Here's how I do it (O = solid, I = stripe):

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
O
O I
I 8 O
O I O I
I O I I O
</pre><hr />

[/ QUOTE ]

Not how I was taught (at least this is how I do it and everyone I know does it, with alternating around the perimeter):

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
O
I I
O 8 O
I I O I
O I O I O
</pre><hr />

EDIT: Just looked it up and my way is totally wrong. And I have some friends who play a lot of pool that rack that way.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
The weird thing on all this is that you never see 8-ball on TV so you never see official rules. I've always wondered what the official 8-ball rack should look like. Here's how I do it (O = solid, I = stripe):

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
O
O I
I 8 O
O I O I
I I O I O
</pre><hr />

[/ QUOTE ]
Is what I do, although probably inconsequential. (Slightly different back row)

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]

Not how I was taught (at least this is how I do it and everyone I know does it, with alternating around the perimeter):

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
O
I I
O 8 O
I I O I
O I O I O
</pre><hr />

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to see you got rid of the wrong. I do something very similar to this, but on the bottommost row I switch an O and an I on one of the corners. Otherwise it seems like the break tends to favor solids a little bit, though I could be off.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

suzzer,

Official 8-ball rack is 8-ball in the middle and the back corners one is solid, one is stripe.

However, I think about 98% standard is doing what you showed with the 1-ball at the top.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

You can't have solids on both back corners or they become way more likely to fall. Unless that's the idea.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Not how I was taught (at least this is how I do it and everyone I know does it, with alternating around the perimeter):

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
O
I I
O 8 O
I I O I
O I O I O
</pre><hr />

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to see you got rid of the wrong. I do something very similar to this, but on the bottommost row I switch an O and an I on one of the corners. Otherwise it seems like the break tends to favor solids a little bit, though I could be off.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's weird because no one has ever questioned my rack before. I figured if I was way off, I would have heard something by now.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

I did not read page 9, and admit my defeat. Apparently they are also in agreement.

Re: A question about Pool (Billirds).
 

[ QUOTE ]

However, I think about 98% standard is doing what you showed with the 1-ball at the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

A decent percentage of people I'd play in bars would complain when I wouldn't put the 1 ball at the top, even if it were another solid (not that that matters, either). I wonder if these are the same type of people that get mad at a blackjack table when somebody else takes their card.