Cheating in Online Poker
 

I am going to write an article on cheating in online poker and am looking for any input that anyone has. I consider myself relatively uninformed at this point as to the shadier aspects of the game, but know that cheating runs rampant based on the comments in ActionJeff's post a couple weeks ago.

I have contacted Stars support, but they have been wildly inconsistent and generally disinterested both about specific aspects of cheating I have pointed out (e.g., buying several "idiots" into tournaments and taking over either literally or verbally if they get deep) and their policies in general, with are inconsistent with the statements being made by their support. I also feel they are very wrong about ethical standards in general with their "whatever is unenforceable is acceptable" line of reasoning.

So if anyone has specific input of any nature, please feel free to post it here, or to PM it to me. As many players who I suspect of cheating in one form or another based on their statements made here in this forum continue to show up deep in tournaments, the more motivated I am do something about it.

Steroids in baseball, doping in the Tour de France, refs on the take in the NBA. It's all over the place, and there's not much I can do about it, despite how much it disturbs me. However, I love this game of ours, this is my game, and I have hopes and goals within this game that are at least in part dependent upon the game flourishing and being fair. Please help me do what we can to make it that way in any way you are able to.

So let this thread not only be about what should go into an article about cheating in online poker, but what can be done by the community in general to prevent it.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

By the way, Stars attitude toward this subject can pretty much be summed up by the email I just received from support. I pointed them to ActionJeff's thread, and they stated they did not have time to look through the entire thread for the posts that I was referencing. I mean, this is obviously a thread with many contributions by many of the top players in the games about various ways that cheating, or at least pushing grey areas, is being discussed and they don't have time to look through it. Simply amazing.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I also feel they are very wrong about ethical standards in general with their "whatever is unenforceable is acceptable" line of reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, what can anyone do about it? Imo there simply isn't a reasonable counter-argument to the fact that any policy implemented to stop "1 player to a hand" or "Player A buys 6 people into event and takes over in the endgame" is going to result in inaccuracy and minor-leage witchhunts. There simply isn't a feasible option to disallow this that doesn't infringe on personal rights as a computer owner.

From PokerStars' standpoint as an online poker room, if they are to make a policy it should be in their first interest to make sure that they are able to implement the policy 100%. If they cannot implement the policy, then they do no good setting the policy out. If anything, setting a policy that cant be implemented looks bad for PokerStars, as it insinuates from a client perspective that PokerStars is not always in control of things and can be manipulated. This can't be good from a shareholder sense in the current state of online poker.

The solution doesn't start by complaining to the poker room, imo it starts with establishing and embracing a community like pocketfives and 2+2 on a greater scale that gets involved in such a way that devious actions are cut down.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

What is right or wrong is not dependent upon enforceability by any reasonable standard of ethics. If murder was impossible to detect for whatever reason, would that mean we would say "have at it because there's nothing we can do about it!"? Of course not.

Stars has an obligation to define the rules of its game to make things as ethical as possible, and do what it can to enforce those rules. Looking the other way and making things a free for all explicitly endorses conduct most of us would find unethical. If, for example, Stars were to say "one person to a hand at all times" but basically never be able to enforce it, this would at least cut down on this unethical behavior. The problem is that the lack of a "one player to a hand" rule can be taken to a massive extreme that most would feel is pretty explicitly unfair.

At any rate, that is only one small portion of what I am talking about. Your second example, "Player A buys 6 people into event and takes over in endgame" is explicitly banned by Stars own rules, yet they seem very disinterested in doing much about it. It's really a general attitude I detect, from Lee Jones through everyone I have talked to in support, that online poker is just too difficult to keep ethical, so there isn't a whole lot they are going to do or say about it.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

And by the way, Clayton, your last point is what I am trying to do. But to find out Stars' stance on all this, I had to inquire, and the response I received was disturbing. I am sure they are laughing all the way to the bank.

I was very disturbed by many of the responses in the ActionJeff thread, and have noticed that it has gone deathly quiet over the last week or two. Some, like ActionJeff and Adanthar, indicated that the extent of online cheating is breathtaking in scale. Some, mostly uneducated and very young, indicated that there's nothing anyone can do about it so everyone should just look the other way.

Well, I am not going to look the other way. I am going to keep this topic up front so, as you say, the community that I know exists consisting of those of us who demand the game be played fairly and ethically are doing our part to make it that way.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]

Stars has an obligation to define the rules of its game to make things as ethical as possible, and do what it can to enforce those rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense. Stars has absolutely no obligation to make things as ethical as possible. They are obligated to make things as ethical as they can. When the means to make things as ethical as possible compromise the safety and privacy of the typical PokerStars user, then the entire fabric of what's considered an established, trusted online poker site can potentially be torn to shreds.

There is a distict difference between "as they can" and "as possible" which involves business ethics and honesty to the consumer. To proclaim rules that cannot be enforced is irresponsible as a business.

[ QUOTE ]
If, for example, Stars were to say "one person to a hand at all times" but basically never be able to enforce it, this would at least cut down on this unethical behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also impractical and only serves as an end without realizing the means and complexities involved, which boils down to business ethics and dishonesty towards consumers when such a suggestion is rephrased as a fake "rule", comprimising PokerStars' image as both the #1 trusted site in online poker and a site that is in control of everything.

[ QUOTE ]
It's really a general attitude I detect, from Lee Jones through everyone I have talked to in support, that online poker is just too difficult to keep ethical, so there isn't a whole lot they are going to do or say about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The complaints u address would require a vast amount of expenses to cater to a very small % of the pokerstars community, and the issue at hand is grey enough that it would not spark a large enough contreversy to hurt business. Imo it is not unreasonable for PokerStars to hold to their approach.

------------------------------

I am only so adamant in being devil's advocate to your OP to bluntly state that I think involving PS in your movement is ill-advised, and your efforts would be best spent to shift your entire focus towards creating and promoting a community that outnumbers MTTC and pocketfives that hopes to maintain a sense of ethics. Like imagine the PPA, except aimed towards online player ethics.

fwiw Paul I like where you're going with this so please don't see my replies as arguing, but rather a suggestion to better your efforts. gl, of course.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

I, too, am pretty disturbed by all of this, and never could figure out the purpose of the ActionJeff thread. He seemed to be calling people out for some kinds of cheating, then was perfectly ok with other kinds. I guess it's wrong if it's being done to me, but ok if my buddies and I are the ones profiting from it. We come down hard on JJProdigy and ZeeJustin and it makes us feel better, but I feel that multi-accounting is less cheating than the collusion-type activities considered "unenforceable."

Online poker is kind of in its "Wild West" phase. In the old West, the rule of law was very difficult to establish because law enforcement was inadequate to keep up with the rapid influx of new settlers, and there were such large areas of land to cover. Eventually, the rule of law was established but, in the meantime, lawmen were pretty much on their own to keep order the best they could. But I doubt the Sheriffs and townsfolk were saying "Well, we can't stop Butch Cassidy from stealing cattle so why not just let him?"

Some studies have shown that the vast majority (80-90% iirc) of the younger generation (not just poker players) believe that it's ok to cheat to get ahead in education (cheating on tests), and on the job, at a significantly higher percentage than previous cohorts (I don't remember the source of the study, but it was quoted in a Reader's Digest article from about 10 years ago). I think that's the sort of thing uclabruinz (and I) saw in the ActionJeff thread.

Although one expects to see all manner of angle-shooting and ethically challenged individuals in a money driven activity such as poker, I don't think it means that we have to accept it, especially since all of us will make less money, not only because of the direct impact, but because of the perceived loss of credibility for potential newcomers who won't want to get involved with an activity they see as stacked against them.

Sorry for the long post. I don't have anything specific to suggest yet, but the lack of response from PS is a serious error in judgment imo, and will end up costing them in the long run. Shedding light on this by writing an article on it is a good start.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

ucla,

team play in cash games is by far the most damaging form of cheating online.

also, dean. is a bot.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

could someone send me the link to action jeffs post cause im interested to see what the hell is going on. i play low stakes so i dont imagine i have to worry about cheating as much.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
could someone send me the link to action jeffs post cause im interested to see what the hell is going on. i play low stakes so i dont imagine i have to worry about cheating as much.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...13#Post11096814

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

I'm taken aback somewhat at attacking stars on any form of support.


Maybe I give them too much credit, but stars support for it's clients far far far exceed the support of most companies in any field. If my cable company was 1/10th as good at support I would be ecstatic.

And cheating and recognizing it and punishing the cheaters falls under this. I don't feel that crucifying Stars over this is good.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

To clarify, I think Stars support in general has been fantastic. It's not a support issue, it's an issue with their stance on cheating, which is inconsistent and weak.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
ucla,

team play in cash games is by far the most damaging form of cheating online.

also, dean. is a bot.

[/ QUOTE ]


how much team play have u seen in cash games lately?

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ucla,

team play in cash games is by far the most damaging form of cheating online.

also, dean. is a bot.

[/ QUOTE ]


how much team play have u seen in cash games lately?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ucla,

team play in cash games is by far the most damaging form of cheating online.

also, dean. is a bot.

[/ QUOTE ]


how much team play have u seen in cash games lately?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

what

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

(i think he was leveling)

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

i dont understand 1 thing in this thread i read some of the actionjeff thread. i was confused because there was talk of multi account cheating but i thought that if 2 computers were in the same room that they would have same ip and i thought that they could track that.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

It's pretty easy to change one of them if you need to.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

ucla, where are you going to be publishing this article? fwiw i think this is a bad idea and im 100% against the shared accounts/multiple accounts bs.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

I agree w/ ec10.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

I think it is safe to say that for as long as people have played poker, some have tried to cheat at it…

Now that being say, I really like Horrid’s contribution to this thread.


I will start with a question:

If you could cheat at online Poker in any which way, what would be the absolute best information you could have?

I have seen a lot of threads about accounts being hacked followed by chip dumping. What that tells me is that someone managed to get a password to go along with an account name somehow. The best way of getting that information is probably a key logger Trojan. We all have been seeing this happen to others and some have had the misfortune of having it happen to them. Generally, the online sites have gotten their [censored] together and will block the accounts and investigate… I think this scam is still a threat but I think the computer geniuses have moved on because of increased resistance and also (to a degree) traceability of the funds.

The most important fact here is that a thief got a hold of a player's account name and the password that goes with it… How did they do this? Think about it. How much effort and knowledge does it take to do that? If you can do that what else can you do?

Now let’s answer the above question.

The best information an online player (or any poker player) could have, is to know the cards of one/some/all opponents. Now if you search reputable poker site for that possibility they will tell you that it is not possible. I personally believe that everything is possible but I would have to say that getting such information as your opponents’ hole cards for the host site is not likely.

How else? Well if your computer is sending that information to your opponent then the host site has nothing to do with it. If a thief has been able to get someone’s login name and password without detection, why not a shot of your computer screen every 20 seconds?

Now I am no computer expert but I have checked with such experts and have been told this is possible (without detection). Let me ask you this? Do you have Pokerstove installed on your computer? Where did you get it? A trusted source? (Disclaimer, I am not implying that Pokerstove is rigged at all nor anything about its creator or the provider. I am just trying to show a way for bad software to get installed on your computer and since most have Stove I am using it as an example). Ever clicked on a cool picture? Maybe you want to check out this threat and think about it a bit (read it all there are some interesting names that come up in there): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

Think about it, if a thief/computer genius/poker player can achieve the above (get some bad software on your machine which sends them a shot of your computer screen) they make a ton of money, get celebrated as one of the truly best players and all of that with next to no risk.

Now if you are serious about playing online poker you may want to have a dedicated computer for it. I suggest following the steps in this thread to secure the machine: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

On a last note, I must admit I am truly scared at the response I will get here. But in terms of cheating I think there is worse than multi-accounting or collusion. Is it out there?

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
ucla, where are you going to be publishing this article? fwiw i think this is a bad idea and im 100% against the shared accounts/multiple accounts bs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like such a scum bag agreeing with this, but yeah, I agree.

We definitely should be trying to get rid of cheaters. This seems like a bad way tho.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

what exactly is the idea/concept behind shared accounts in terms of cheating?

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

EC10, Ansky, and Noah, your opinion in general is very valuable to me but not without further explanation as well as alternatives for dealing with what is apparently the very large scope of this problem. Why do you think publishing an article to make people aware of the extent of online cheating, and what people can do to prevent it, is a bad idea? I sure hope it's not for the reason that I suspect.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

ucla, where many people go wrong is in making a disadvantage into a question of ethics. simply because a person may have an edge on you doesn't make it wrong. this is what is happening now with online poker.

the rules define what is right, not any one person's opinion as to what seems proper. if team play is allowed online it is not wrong. it may feel wrong, but that is a conditioned response not one based in logic.

consider the game of baseball. oftentimes the manager will switch pitchers to match up with a certain batter. the pitcher might be particularly good against one batter and may come to the mound for only that one batter. after the strike out, the pitcher returns to the sidelines and the pitcher that is better overall resumes playing. likewise a batter that is particularly good in certain situations, but isn't in the regular rotation might be brought in. runners that excel at stealing bases can be subbed in. balls can be thrown to intentionally walk a superior batter, etc. perhaps of greatest import to the current conversation is the example of the relief pitcher: the one that is a specialist in closing. nobody considers these things to be unethical, because they are explicitly allowed in the rules of the game. however, if you actually sit back and think about it you might be tempted to say that they are unfair. shouldn't the pitcher that started the game finish it? how can they bring in so and so with a fresh arm who is absolutely deadly at finishing? it's not fair. see the similarities?

there will be things that don't seem to make sense. behaviour x will be allowed, but behaviour x.1 won't be even though they are essentially the same thing. this goes for anything in life. whenever there is a line drawn there are things that may be holding hands, but are separated by that line. it is up to each of us to respect that line, regardless.

when jeff bought that seat late in the sunday million what he did was not wrong, because it was allowed by the rules of the site. however, the rules have since been changed and so it would be cheating to do it now.

if stealthmunk buys a bunch of people into a tournament and then coaches the one that goes deep it gives him a much better chance to win the tournament and most importantly, from our standpoint, to do better than us. it is this last point that makes us want to say, "hey, that's unfair!" however, if it is sanctioned by the site it is not wrong. yes, it sucks for us, but it doesn't make stealthmunk a bad guy. if the rules do forbid the behaviour then it would indeed be unethical of stealthmunk to do this.

it is the rules that define the "morality" of the game.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I sure hope it's not for the reason that I suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure it is, and I'm also sure that it's totally reasonable considering the effects of a major article like that could very easily end up costing us all more money than any number of cheaters ever could.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

I may have more to say about this, but it seems to me there are (at least) two separate problems here, and some are more concerned about one or the other. I dont think they are actually mutually exclusive, though they kind of seem like they would be.

Problem 1: Multi-accounting is a problem because it creates an information asymmetry. If UCLA is playing under JoeSchmo's name, then UCLA knows he is up against Foucault but Foucault does not know he is up against UCLA. Similarly, the vast majority of players who don't know the extent of this problem (including myself probably even now, and certainly until recently) are not making an informed decision to buy into a tournament because they don't realize exactly what they are getting into.

Problem 2: Multi-accounting creates a perception of wide-spread cheating that, true or not, scares away many recreational players who contribute EV to the tournament.

In the first case, the central problem is that fish don't know multi-accounting is going on. In the second, the problem is that they do.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
EC10, Ansky, and Noah, your opinion in general is very valuable to me but not without further explanation as well as alternatives for dealing with what is apparently the very large scope of this problem. Why do you think publishing an article to make people aware of the extent of online cheating, and what people can do to prevent it, is a bad idea? I sure hope it's not for the reason that I suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because whether or not you want to believe it, it's impossible to stop. And at the same time, driving people away from the game or bringing bad press to the game is damaging to us all.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EC10, Ansky, and Noah, your opinion in general is very valuable to me but not without further explanation as well as alternatives for dealing with what is apparently the very large scope of this problem. Why do you think publishing an article to make people aware of the extent of online cheating, and what people can do to prevent it, is a bad idea? I sure hope it's not for the reason that I suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because whether or not you want to believe it, it's impossible to stop. And at the same time, driving people away from the game or bringing bad press to the game is damaging to us all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not surprised at all that your position is to do whatever is best for your own bottom line. Someday, hopefully, with some maturity, you will understand there are more important things then $EV.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EC10, Ansky, and Noah, your opinion in general is very valuable to me but not without further explanation as well as alternatives for dealing with what is apparently the very large scope of this problem. Why do you think publishing an article to make people aware of the extent of online cheating, and what people can do to prevent it, is a bad idea? I sure hope it's not for the reason that I suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because whether or not you want to believe it, it's impossible to stop. And at the same time, driving people away from the game or bringing bad press to the game is damaging to us all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think UCLA is trying to find a way to present this issue in a way that raises awareness that gets top players to report people and these top players' actions to give more peace of mind to the recreational players.

The responses in AJ's thread were a bit discouraging to someone like me while Stealthmunk's recent p5's thread was a breath of fresh air.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EC10, Ansky, and Noah, your opinion in general is very valuable to me but not without further explanation as well as alternatives for dealing with what is apparently the very large scope of this problem. Why do you think publishing an article to make people aware of the extent of online cheating, and what people can do to prevent it, is a bad idea? I sure hope it's not for the reason that I suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because whether or not you want to believe it, it's impossible to stop. And at the same time, driving people away from the game or bringing bad press to the game is damaging to us all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not surprised at all that your position is to do whatever is best for your own bottom line. Someday, hopefully, with some maturity, you will understand there are more important things then $EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course there are, but why would anyone want to take steps to undermine their "industry" when they are making a good living off of it (and not cheating themselves)?

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EC10, Ansky, and Noah, your opinion in general is very valuable to me but not without further explanation as well as alternatives for dealing with what is apparently the very large scope of this problem. Why do you think publishing an article to make people aware of the extent of online cheating, and what people can do to prevent it, is a bad idea? I sure hope it's not for the reason that I suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because whether or not you want to believe it, it's impossible to stop. And at the same time, driving people away from the game or bringing bad press to the game is damaging to us all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not surprised at all that your position is to do whatever is best for your own bottom line. Someday, hopefully, with some maturity, you will understand there are more important things then $EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

his position is based in reality and truth though. While you make it sound like it's a selfish stance- gobbo is just stating a fact.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

Paul,

How much of a difference is there really between your moral argument with Goboo and the moral argument between a vegan and someone who sympathizes with the current meat-processing industry?

Sure, I think it's kind of [censored] up the way livestock, chickens, pigs, etc. are treated, but in all honesty there is absolutely nothing that can be done without an incredibly massive attack that will end up harming millions in various ways. Basically, it's impossible to lift a rock so heavy without killing too many, even if it's a noble enterprise.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Paul,

How much of a difference is there really between your moral argument with Goboo and the moral argument between a vegan and someone who sympathizes with the current meat-processing industry?

Sure, I think it's kind of [censored] up the way livestock, chickens, pigs, etc. are treated, but in all honesty there is absolutely nothing that can be done without an incredibly massive attack that will end up harming millions in various ways. Basically, it's impossible to lift a rock so heavy without killing too many, even if it's a noble enterprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

0evg0, this is not analogous.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EC10, Ansky, and Noah, your opinion in general is very valuable to me but not without further explanation as well as alternatives for dealing with what is apparently the very large scope of this problem. Why do you think publishing an article to make people aware of the extent of online cheating, and what people can do to prevent it, is a bad idea? I sure hope it's not for the reason that I suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because whether or not you want to believe it, it's impossible to stop. And at the same time, driving people away from the game or bringing bad press to the game is damaging to us all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not surprised at all that your position is to do whatever is best for your own bottom line. Someday, hopefully, with some maturity, you will understand there are more important things then $EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew you had developed the opinion that Jimmy sanctions/ approves of online cheating based on your replies in the last thread. I think you have completely misinterpreted his posts and have developed a biased opinion based on this misinterpretation. Presuming his opinions on the subject are based on a +EV situation for him is very insulting and completely wrong. Additionally I think I'm a much better judge of his maturity level, character, and values, and I think you owe him an apology.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

I have an idea for all you people who say "it's impossible to stop." Quit saying that, it is possible to stop, but we haven't figured it out yet. Instead of deciding that there is nothing you can do, you're helpless, and dealing with it is the only option, spend some time thinking of ways to counteract these problems.

I predict that within 18 months that online poker as we know it will either have dealt with this problem or cease to exist as a profitable career for many of us. It is up to us to keep our jobs safe as poker players, therefore it is our jobs to combat multiaccounters so we can invite fish to come play with us safely and securely.

I think the key will lie in the way accounts are set up, find a way that only the true "owner" of the account can sign into the account, whether it be a SSN as a password or something similar like that.

To UCLA, I think writing an article about cheating in online poker is a bad idea. I think you should focus on writing about how to combat online cheating and share it with the 2+2 and p5's communities and poker websites. The most important thing we can do at this point in time is to keep our 'fight' silent in regards to keeping the fish uninformed to cheating. After all, they are the most important part of online poker and scaring them off would likely result in online poker as we know it to cease.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Paul,

How much of a difference is there really between your moral argument with Goboo and the moral argument between a vegan and someone who sympathizes with the current meat-processing industry?

Sure, I think it's kind of [censored] up the way livestock, chickens, pigs, etc. are treated, but in all honesty there is absolutely nothing that can be done without an incredibly massive attack that will end up harming millions in various ways. Basically, it's impossible to lift a rock so heavy without killing too many, even if it's a noble enterprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

0evg0, this is not analogous.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't see how this is at least similar, you're not trying very hard.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
To UCLA, I think writing an article about cheating in online poker is a bad idea. I think you should focus on writing about how to combat online cheating and share it with the 2+2 and p5's communities and poker websites. The most important thing we can do at this point in time is to keep our 'fight' silent in regards to keeping the fish uninformed to cheating. After all, they are the most important part of online poker and scaring them off would likely result in online poker as we know it to cease.

[/ QUOTE ]

And your ignorance shows through.

The vast majority of these sacred fish we must not let this knowledge spread to regularly frequent 2+2, P5s, etc.

You think the vast majority of 2+2 isn't made up of losing players?

Haven't you ever seen the 500 post threads about "bots playing 200NL" or [censored] like that?

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

I am all for more fish coming to the games, but not at the expense of my integrity or the integrity of the game. Fish should be fully informed about what they are getting themselves into, regardless of the affect that may have on Gobbo's (or anyone's) $EV. It's really not a grey issue unless you put money over ethics.

At any rate, in the long run the best thing to do is publically deal with the cheating issue, and address it the best way possible. Sweeping it under the rug, while possibly putting more $$$ in some pockets over the short term, is clearly not the best long-term solution.

Re: Cheating in Online Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I predict that within 18 months that online poker as we know it will either have dealt with this problem or cease to exist as a profitable career for many of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I predict you're wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
therefore it is our jobs to combat multiaccounters so we can invite fish to come play with us safely and securely.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay...

[ QUOTE ]
I think the key will lie in the way accounts are set up, find a way that only the true "owner" of the account can sign into the account, whether it be a SSN as a password or something similar like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, the fish would be really happy to give their SSN to sites, especially when there's a thread *on 2+2* every week about how handing over a driver's license to cash out is so horrible.

---

ucla: publicizing this in the 'mainstream' is the wrong way to go. think of it this way: the people whom it directly affects more than 99% of the rest of the poker world are the marginal winners at the 215's, most of whom are right here at 2+2/p5's/wherever and already know about it. nobody below that should care, and the big losers are relatively unaffected since they have no EV to lose. all you'd be doing is making fish that would never come across a multiaccounter in years of pokering at the 33's not want to deposit.

if you want to find and out multiaccounters, by all means, find and out multiaccounters. what does that have to do with writing an article to people that will never see anyone multiaccount? no idea.