We both saw her card!
 

Stupid LHE game in Oceanside, CA last week where I am getting my head kicked in.

As the dealer is pitching the second card around to each player the one seat accidentally hits the second card of the player in the two seat.

Rather than landing and gliding across the table the card is redirected by the player in the one seat and hits the felt in a way that it is totally exposed to the table. Imagine a card vertically standing on its edge before it falls flat.

Seat 1 and myself both say we clearly saw the card even though it was never actually laid face up on the table.

After about 30-45 seconds of people saying mis deal, mis deal, I actually announce the card that I saw because the dealer is just sitting there doing nothing.

Eventually the floor is called and apparently this does not qualify as a misdeal rather the women has to keep the card and play the hand out as normal even though I announced one of her cards to the table.

Fortunately she folded, I apologized, she understood, and all was well at the table.

However this rule seems ridiculous. Is this a standard ruling by the floor? I was obviously out of line announcing her card but you live and you learn. I guess the $200 or so dollars I gave to her a couple hands before was probably good compensation though.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

Misdeal, no. (only first or second card off the deck or if two cards are exposed).
Card replaced, yes. (does not have to be face up. just flashed enough to give people information)
Floor made a bad decision, yes. (bad day, a moron, whatever).

Re: We both saw her card!
 

Shouldn't that simply be an exposed card and used as the burn? Same as if the dealer flipped over a card.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

I don't think you were out of line annoucing her card. In the casinos I've played at, if anyone at the table saw it, and the flipping was not done by the person whose cards they were, then the exposed card becomes the first burn card and the person would get what was originally meant to be the burn card.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

You were not at all out of line. Announcing the card proves that it was exposed, which SHOULD HAVE gotten her a replacement card, with the exposed card used as the burn. It also prevents you from unfairly having information the rest of the table does not have, which is the basis for the Show One, Show All rule.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

I don't see why people are defending you for calling out this players exposed card since even you know you were in the wrong. Also I never understand why players choose to slow down a game that is already slow enough to press through a rule on no consequence. Why were the other players at the table screaming for a mis-deal? How did the exposed card effect anyone other than you (to your advantage) the other player who claims to have seen the exposed card (also to their advantage) and the woman who got the fouled card (obv to her disatvantage). If other players where jumping in calling for a mis-deal, they are big dummy's. As for you, you should have kept your info (angle-shoot) to yourself and tried to gain $$ from it. Why was it sooo important for you to have the dealer re-deal?

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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As for you, you should have kept your info (angle-shoot) to yourself and tried to gain $$ from it. Why was it sooo important for you to have the dealer re-deal?

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Because the OP isn't a douchebag?

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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I don't see why people are defending you for calling out this players exposed card since even you know you were in the wrong. Also I never understand why players choose to slow down a game that is already slow enough to press through a rule on no consequence. Why were the other players at the table screaming for a mis-deal? How did the exposed card effect anyone other than you (to your advantage) the other player who claims to have seen the exposed card (also to their advantage) and the woman who got the fouled card (obv to her disatvantage). If other players where jumping in calling for a mis-deal, they are big dummy's. As for you, you should have kept your info (angle-shoot) to yourself and tried to gain $$ from it. Why was it sooo important for you to have the dealer re-deal?

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What?

He did what everybody is supposed to do when they're on their best behavior.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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I don't see why people are defending you for calling out this players exposed card since even you know you were in the wrong. Also I never understand why players choose to slow down a game that is already slow enough to press through a rule on no consequence. Why were the other players at the table screaming for a mis-deal? How did the exposed card effect anyone other than you (to your advantage) the other player who claims to have seen the exposed card (also to their advantage) and the woman who got the fouled card (obv to her disatvantage). If other players where jumping in calling for a mis-deal, they are big dummy's. As for you, you should have kept your info (angle-shoot) to yourself and tried to gain $$ from it. Why was it sooo important for you to have the dealer re-deal?

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Oy. Where's the Excedrin.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

I'm pretty sure floor and Humble Pie get KITN.

This is a standard exposed card gets replaced and becomes the burn situation.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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This is a standard exposed card gets replaced and becomes the burn situation.

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Um, no it's not. This is entirely room-dependant. Obviously it's not an exposed card in this room. The dealer's main error was in not doing anything when people were calling for misdeal. First off, a misdeal is never the solution here, but whenever that train of "misdeal!' starts, it's all I can do to prevent people from instamucking OOP. It's madness, I tell you! The dealer erred in not nipping that in the bud, and for not explaining to you that in that house, a sideways card is not an exposed card.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

PS, in this situation, the player really should have "encouraged" the card to land face-up, if possible. But I know that in my room, if it flies through the air and bounces all around for everybody to see but lands face-down, it plays.

I agree with this overall (tho' I'm open to good judgment declaring a card exposed), because it does open the door to a lot of "I saw xxx" in attempts to ruin somebody's hand.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

You see a player's card as it's being dealt, you tell the dealer. Common courtesy--the Golden Rule.

In my casino, the card is replaced after the button has been dealt his second card and the exposed card becomes the burn card. Those shouting for a misdeal probably didn't like their hands very much.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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But I know that in my room, if it flies through the air and bounces all around for everybody to see but lands face-down, it plays.


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Remind me not to play in your room.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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This is a standard exposed card gets replaced and becomes the burn situation.

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But I know that in my room, if it flies through the air and bounces all around for everybody to see but lands face-down, it plays.


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What is the rationale that your poker room uses for making a player play a card that the dealer exposed and other people saw; rather than giving the player a replacement card?

This seems to be another example of the special class of poker room staff who completely lack common sense.


PS- what room do you deal at?

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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This is a standard exposed card gets replaced and becomes the burn situation.

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But I know that in my room, if it flies through the air and bounces all around for everybody to see but lands face-down, it plays.


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What is the rationale that your poker room uses for making a player play a card that the dealer exposed and other people saw; rather than giving the player a replacement card?

This seems to be another example of the special class of poker room staff who completely lack common sense.


PS- what room do you deal at?

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I am wondering if there was a misunderstanding. It is pretty standard that if a player is responsible for the flashing of his or her card that card must be kept and played.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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...in my room, if it flies through the air and bounces all around for everybody to see but lands face-down, it plays.

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Pretty incredibly wrong-headed policy you've got there. GREAT place to play if you are working with a dealer and want to get a look at other players cards, though. Heck... the dealer can, according to this policy, literally take any player's card, show it to the whole table slowly and carefully, and then deal it face down to the player and the player MUST play it.

Not cool. At all. Unacceptably not cool. There some sort of gaming regulatory body that covers this card room?

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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...in my room, if it flies through the air and bounces all around for everybody to see but lands face-down, it plays.

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Pretty incredibly wrong-headed policy you've got there. GREAT place to play if you are working with a dealer and want to get a look at other players cards, though. Heck... the dealer can, according to this policy, literally take any player's card, show it to the whole table slowly and carefully, and then deal it face down to the player and the player MUST play it.

Not cool. At all. Unacceptably not cool. There some sort of gaming regulatory body that covers this card room?

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I don't believe him.

Name the room, pfapfap.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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This is a standard exposed card gets replaced and becomes the burn situation.

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Um, no it's not. This is entirely room-dependant. Obviously it's not an exposed card in this room. The dealer's main error was in not doing anything when people were calling for misdeal. First off, a misdeal is never the solution here, but whenever that train of "misdeal!' starts, it's all I can do to prevent people from instamucking OOP. It's madness, I tell you! The dealer erred in not nipping that in the bud, and for not explaining to you that in that house, a sideways card is not an exposed card.

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Ya you are right, the rule at Oceans 11 (where I believe thise took place) is the card has to land face up to get replaced. Also, if a card hits a players hand and lands face up they have to keep it as well.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

Yeah Ocean's does a lot of things that don't make sense and this rule is one of them.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

I had a similar experience at the Blue Heron in Port Perry, Ontario last weekend.

The card was dealt in such a way that I clearly saw it. I announced that I had seen it, and that it was the Ac. The dealer took back one of the players cards to replace it, and exposed it over for the table to see. It was the 3d. The hand continued, with me shaking my head. The gentleman whose card I'd seen bet, and I folded in turn. Of course he won the hand, with AA, one of which was - you guessed it - the Ac.

I really thought that this should have been handled differently, but I thought that I acted properly. Opinions?

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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The card was dealt in such a way that I clearly saw it. I announced that I had seen it, and that it was the Ac. The dealer took back one of the players cards to replace it, and exposed it over for the table to see. It was the 3d. The hand continued, with me shaking my head. The gentleman whose card I'd seen bet, and I folded in turn. Of course he won the hand, with AA, one of which was - you guessed it - the Ac.


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lol!

awesome story.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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But I know that in my room, if it flies through the air and bounces all around for everybody to see but lands face-down, it plays.


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This is certainly one of the worst variations from the typical rule that I have ever heard of.

For the good of the game, players should always admit when they have seen another player's card particularly when it was due to dealer error during the deal. The card should always become the burn card and a new card dealt.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

Obviously I'm speaking with a bit of flair, as I've never seen a card fly around the room and bounce off tables and hit a floorman's head and then land face-down on the table, but I have had a few situations where it's done a two-wheel lean but lands face-down, and that for sure plays. I agree the extreme end is a little silly, but I also understand how this entire subject is a gray area open to angle-shooting.

I'm not going to say where I work. I think my room has a lot of silly and inconsistent policies (like the magical muck), and I'd like to continue to feel free to comment on them. I'll say it's a SF Bay Area room. I'm sure someone paying attention to my posts over the months could figure it out, but I ask that people not speculate here. Thank you.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

Not a mis-deal. Bad floor decision; card s/b replaced.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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but I have had a few situations where it's done a two-wheel lean but lands face-down, and that for sure plays. I agree the extreme end is a little silly, but I also understand how this entire subject is a gray area open to angle-shooting.

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That card should not play as it was flashed. Generally if any player (including the player being dealt to) claims they saw the card before it is picked up it should be replaced. If they didn't really see it no harm is done from replacing it. If they did see it the player should get a different card.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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it does open the door to a lot of "I saw xxx" in attempts to ruin somebody's hand.

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A. Have your dealers be careful when they deal
B. Have your dealers pay attention when they deal, so they know when a card does flash and when it doesn't.
C. Deal with habitual angleshooters to keep your games enjoyable and fair to all

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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Not a mis-deal. Bad floor decision; card s/b replaced.

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No it was a good floor decision, because that is the rule in that card room. I don't like it, but thats the way they do it.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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Not a mis-deal. Bad floor decision; card s/b replaced.

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No it was a good floor decision, because that is the rule in that card room. I don't like it, but thats the way they do it.

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Quibble. Quibble.

(a) Bad decision or
(b) good decision with a bad rule.

You decide.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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Generally if any player (including the player being dealt to) claims they saw the card before it is picked up it should be replaced.

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Maybe where you work, but not where I do. Tho' next time I go in, I'll ask some folks who should know, see what they say. Heck, maybe I'm wrong about this. I do remember a sepcific conversation regarding goofily flying cards regarding "show one show all", so maybe I'm confusing things. But I'm almost positive the answer is, "if it lands face down, it's not exposed".

But then, we also welcome and encourage abusive players, so keep that in mind.

My main point is that this "I saw it, so it's exposed" rule isn't universal, and one should check with floor staff before relying on it.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

When a card is flashed it should be turned face up and replaced by the burn card at the end of the deal, the flashed card becoming the new burn. It is only a misdeal if the flashed card is one of the first two off the deck (either blind's first card) or in most rooms the button's first card**, or if more than one card is exposed. Sounds like some general all-around nut-kickings are in order here.

You are not wrong to point out a flashed card.

Al

**this rule of the button's first card being exposed causes a misdeal is based on the supposed "logic" that since the button would get two cards in a row, he's now more likely to get a pair. However, by default this assumes that the dealer has not sufficiently shuffled the deck, and that they haven't been properly killing hands either. It may be ever so slightly more likely but in reality this rule simply causes more misdeals and wastes time. It's a rule made up by nits and technicality freaks. Unfortunately many of these idiotic rules that remain commonplace are accepted without question thanks to the lemming-like mentality that all good red-blooded americans have

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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My main point is that this "I saw it, so it's exposed" rule isn't universal, and one should check with floor staff before relying on it.



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I was just pointing out that it should be universal, but it isn't.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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Obviously I'm speaking with a bit of flair, as I've never seen a card fly around the room and bounce off tables and hit a floorman's head and then land face-down on the table, but I have had a few situations where it's done a two-wheel lean but lands face-down, and that for sure plays. I agree the extreme end is a little silly, but I also understand how this entire subject is a gray area open to angle-shooting.

I'm not going to say where I work. I think my room has a lot of silly and inconsistent policies (like the magical muck), and I'd like to continue to feel free to comment on them. I'll say it's a SF Bay Area room. I'm sure someone paying attention to my posts over the months could figure it out, but I ask that people not speculate here. Thank you.

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Please ask your floor supervisor this: If two people saw a card, and they announced it correctly (despite it landing face down), would that card play?

Your earlier post sounded quite certain of this. Some of us find this so shocking as to be unbelievable.

I suppose it's possible, but it's just hard for me to believe.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

I have asked one of the most senior, knowledgable, and intelligent floor staff about this.

No matter what happens between the dealer releasing it and it landing on the felt, if it lands face down, it plays.

This makes sense to me. It's very rare that a card will do such a thing, but it's a lot less rare that someone would try to angle-shoot (alone or with a buddy) to try to get a better second card and/or kill another player's card. This removes gray area.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

Down with dealers. No more of all this nonsense, like exposed cards...Bring on the electronic tables. Poker will change, but so does everything else.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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I have asked one of the most senior, knowledgable, and intelligent floor staff about this.

No matter what happens between the dealer releasing it and it landing on the felt, if it lands face down, it plays.

This makes sense to me. It's very rare that a card will do such a thing, but it's a lot less rare that someone would try to angle-shoot (alone or with a buddy) to try to get a better second card and/or kill another player's card. This removes gray area.

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Well, I guess it's just one more example of how it pays to know the local rules. I would hope that really strange variations would be prominently posted, because nobody is going to ask about something like this upfront. It's not quite as bad as "Excuse me, but do straights beat flushes on Tuesday nights?", but it is quite bizarre.

On the other hand, we can all be thankful that unusual situations only come up rarely!

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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This makes sense to me. It's very rare that a card will do such a thing, but it's a lot less rare that someone would try to angle-shoot (alone or with a buddy) to try to get a better second card and/or kill another player's card.

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Actually cards flashing is probably more common then flipping. But in any event I'm not sure how you think a player could angle shoot trying to get a better card or kill another players card. If the card really didn't flash then the player has no way of knowing whether its a "good" card or a "bad" card so they have nothing to gain.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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This makes sense to me. It's very rare that a card will do such a thing, but it's a lot less rare that someone would try to angle-shoot (alone or with a buddy) to try to get a better second card and/or kill another player's card.

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Actually cards flashing is probably more common then flipping. But in any event I'm not sure how you think a player could angle shoot trying to get a better card or kill another players card. If the card really didn't flash then the player has no way of knowing whether its a "good" card or a "bad" card so they have nothing to gain.

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The only angle I am aware of (and easily prevented) is a late position players says "I saw a black ace" when an early position player raises while the dealer is still dealing.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

I get my first card. Ace. Yay. I get my second card. Low diamond. Boo. I gesture to my fried. "I saw a flash."

I'm in the 3-seat. Dealer pitches to me and quickly is looking the other way. I don't like my card. "My card flashed, I'm pretty sure these people saw it, they're lying if they said they didn't."

I simply don't like someone in another seat. "I saw a black face card."

That kind of thing.

I'm not disagreeing that it's a bit against the norm, but I don't think it's as absurd as people on here are making it seem. I don't feel too strongly one way or another. I can certainly see a lot of our regulars trying to pull some of this stuff. Maybe not constantly, but enough to warrant this sort of policy. I think the risk of the occasional person's hand being partially known to a couple of people is less so than the headache involved in regular claims of flashing.

But the main point is that the "I saw the card" thing isn't universa.

Re: We both saw her card!
 

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I get my first card. Ace. Yay. I get my second card. Low diamond. Boo. I gesture to my fried. "I saw a flash."

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nono... you don't get to look at your card and THEN ask for another. Yes, I've seen that done and yes, the dealer fell for it. Yes, that's an angle. That's really simple to prevent--you don't get to look at your cards and then request a replacement.

I believe that's right up there among the dumbest room rules I've ever heard.