AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

What are people's thoughts? When he raised I felt there was no hand I could beat and I was likely against a set, 2pr or combo draws, and the min raise was suspicious

Full Tilt Poker 6 max $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em

Villain has just sat down - no reads or stats
Note - VILLAIN took several seconds before calling preflop

Hero (SB) $139
BB $117.50
UTG $64.10
UTG +1 $188
Villain $113.80
Button $98.50

Hero is dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

2 folds , VILLAIN raises to $3.50, BUTTON calls $3.50

HERO raises to $18, BB folds , VILLAIN calls $14.50, BUTTON folds

FLOP: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets $25
Villain raises to $50
Hero folds

VILLAIN wins the pot $87.50 (-rake $3)

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

what a sucky spot, i never fold here, but given his line he has u beat alot, i think a fold is fine, but i would jam.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

ick, this spot sucks but I think it is a fold

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

very tough spot, remember you have outs if you are losing at present. he is laying great odds here. i would peel another card here and see what he does

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

The trouble is my best out Q is not disguised plus a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] isnt thrilling. In addition an A or K could fill Villain up

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

[ QUOTE ]
villain has just sat down - no reads or stats

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+


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2 folds , VILLAIN raises to $3.50, BUTTON calls $3.50

HERO raises to $18, BB folds , VILLAIN calls $14.50, BUTTON folds


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+

tptk

= shove.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

I think this is pretty good. Board sucks.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

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I think this is pretty good. Board sucks.

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B/F is horrible here imo. People do stupid things in reraised pots. Even if villain has two pair we're only a 3:1 dog. Villain could also have AQ. He could have air or a medium pair trying to get us off KK/QQ, he could have some pair draw combo like kj, etc. If we bet this flop it's with the intentions of getting all in if raised

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

I like your fold. I need to start folding here instead of peeling and folding turn/jamming

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

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I think this is pretty good. Board sucks.

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QFT

Unfortunate, but good lay down I think.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

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I think this is pretty good. Board sucks.

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Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

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I think this is pretty good. Board sucks.

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If you look back at your session and these are the pots where you lost the most money, you'll be in good shape.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

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B/F is horrible here imo. People do stupid things in reraised pots.

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think about how it looks to him. I raise, this guy reraises, flop comes AJT and he bets. Do I want to make a move? MMm maybe not this time. it's just not a spot people make a ton of moves in IME.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

Your line is showing a lot of strength, and the villain's min raise is not ment to get you out. Fold it. When the 'board sucks,' you normally don't have the best of it vs. a raise.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

Jacks, Tens, would all follow this same line. Your hand is behind. 4 bet shoving TPTK is horrendous and -EV here. You expect AQ to be minraising here oop? Don't think so..

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

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B/F is horrible here imo. People do stupid things in reraised pots.

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think about how it looks to him. I raise, this guy reraises, flop comes AJT and he bets. Do I want to make a move? MMm maybe not this time. it's just not a spot people make a ton of moves in IME.

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Meh, I don't think this is true at 200NL and below. Villain's just don't think about ranges very well. It's usually ("I'll call and make a move at favorable flops. OOOOOH, look, a flush draw!"). I shove and would not at all be surprised to see a combo draw (or even a naked flush draw) here.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

i think its a fine fold.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

I think that these are the spots where the big time winners in online poker evaluate this as being behind and fold. These types of hands come up alot of times over a week and can make a big difference in a bankroll. I was always told that the great ones can lay down big hands.

Nice play.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

It is a tough spot, but you have to realize you put yourself in that spot.

First mistake. Preflop, why in the world would you over bet the flop when you are in the small blind. This by far the biggest mistake i see a lot of people in the small stakes make. You have to realize that in these small stakes you are short stacked and by over betting a 3 bet preflop will result in all your chips in the pot by the river.

You just have A high, its a drawing hand and you shouldnt mind if 2 or 3 ppl see the flop. I prefer to limp in the blinds and play it from there. but a reraise is by no means a bad choice just making 18 to go is.

if you raise make it 9 - 12. 18 is just insane.

then he min raises. a pure sign of weakness. what he is probably looking for is to take control of the hand and see the river card or check it down. but he can easily have AA (doubt it), KK,QQ, JJ, 1010, AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A 9, KQ, KJ, K10 of spades, or even the 98 of spades. all those hands you can make a valid point to min raising that flop.

Now we go off your image an play. Your hand range. AA, KK,QQ, JJ, maybe 1010, AK and AQ most likely. So right off the bat he knows that you dont have the nuts (KQ) so there is always a chance you will lay it down to a raise. if you call he will know that he is probably beat and he will get an extra card on the river to suck out.


If you would of played it properly. Call in the small blind. now the flop you bet 6$ and he raises you to 12, you pop it up to 30$ he pushes you have the worst hand and can easily fold. AND you saved yourself 10$, but you also gave your self full control of the hand and to take it down.

Or you could of check called the flop and pray for a spade so you can value bet like you hit the flush and get to see the outcome of the hand. once again, if he comes over the top on the turn or river, you are beat and you can lay it down.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

I like this fold. FWIW, when you simply add AQ into the mix we have 45% equity.

Board: As Tc Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 27.329% 26.54% 00.78% 4993 147.50 { AhKh }
Hand 1: 72.671% 71.89% 00.78% 13522 147.50 { JcJd, JcJh, JdJh, TdTh, TdTs, ThTs, AJs-ATs, 9s8s, AJo-ATo }

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

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First mistake. Preflop, why in the world would you over bet the flop when you are in the small blind. This by far the biggest mistake i see a lot of people in the small stakes make. You have to realize that in these small stakes you are short stacked and by over betting a 3 bet preflop will result in all your chips in the pot by the river.

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We are short stacked?

In general why is all of our chips "potentially" in the middle with a premium hand a bad thing?

BTW, I think you mean all of the chips will be in on the turn.


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if you raise make it 9 - 12. 18 is just insane.

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A nice pot sized raise is 14. I know many players like to raise more OOP to take the pot down PF. So PF is perfectly ok. I would call a raise to $9 a mistake because you are not inducing your opponents into mistakes by calling PF.

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then he min raises. a pure sign of weakness. what he is probably looking for is to take control of the hand and see the river card or check it down.

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We 3bet PF, then lead into a dangerous board which represents a lot of strength on our part. Then villain min-raises to take control of the hand. Sure sometimes this may be the case, but most of the time it is a villain using a stackadonk line with a monster holding knowing we cannot fold to some sissy min-raise.

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but he can easily have AA (doubt it), KK,QQ, JJ, 1010, AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A 9, KQ, KJ, K10 of spades, or even the 98 of spades.

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This is pretty optimistic on your part. Most villains would fold A9/AT/KT+ to our 3bet PF. They also would be looking to call down and see a cheap showdown AQ/KK/QQ, because of our strong line.


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Now we go off your image an play. Your hand range. AA, KK,QQ, JJ, maybe 1010, AK and AQ most likely. So right off the bat he knows that you dont have the nuts (KQ) so there is always a chance you will lay it down to a raise. if you call he will know that he is probably beat and he will get an extra card on the river to suck out.

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Let me get this right. Villain says, "He has AK let me raise him off his hand, o I know I will min-raise him off his probable TPTK." More like, "ZOMG I have [2pair/set], how do I build the pot without losing my customer, O I KNOW I WILL MINRAISE!".

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If you would of played it properly. Call in the small blind. now the flop you bet 6$ and he raises you to 12, you pop it up to 30$ he pushes you have the worst hand and can easily fold. AND you saved yourself 10$, but you also gave your self full control of the hand and to take it down.

Or you could of check called the flop and pray for a spade so you can value bet like you hit the flush and get to see the outcome of the hand. once again, if he comes over the top on the turn or river, you are beat and you can lay it down.

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My brain hurts.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is a tough spot, but you have to realize you put yourself in that spot.

First mistake. Preflop, why in the world would you over bet the flop when you are in the small blind. This by far the biggest mistake i see a lot of people in the small stakes make. You have to realize that in these small stakes you are short stacked and by over betting a 3 bet preflop will result in all your chips in the pot by the river.

You just have A high, its a drawing hand and you shouldnt mind if 2 or 3 ppl see the flop. I prefer to limp in the blinds and play it from there. but a reraise is by no means a bad choice just making 18 to go is.

if you raise make it 9 - 12. 18 is just insane.

then he min raises. a pure sign of weakness. what he is probably looking for is to take control of the hand and see the river card or check it down. but he can easily have AA (doubt it), KK,QQ, JJ, 1010, AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A 9, KQ, KJ, K10 of spades, or even the 98 of spades. all those hands you can make a valid point to min raising that flop.

Now we go off your image an play. Your hand range. AA, KK,QQ, JJ, maybe 1010, AK and AQ most likely. So right off the bat he knows that you dont have the nuts (KQ) so there is always a chance you will lay it down to a raise. if you call he will know that he is probably beat and he will get an extra card on the river to suck out.


If you would of played it properly. Call in the small blind. now the flop you bet 6$ and he raises you to 12, you pop it up to 30$ he pushes you have the worst hand and can easily fold. AND you saved yourself 10$, but you also gave your self full control of the hand and to take it down.

Or you could of check called the flop and pray for a spade so you can value bet like you hit the flush and get to see the outcome of the hand. once again, if he comes over the top on the turn or river, you are beat and you can lay it down.

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i didn't read all of this cause im kinda drunk but lol, just lol

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is a tough spot, but you have to realize you put yourself in that spot.

First mistake. Preflop, why in the world would you over bet the flop when you are in the small blind. This by far the biggest mistake i see a lot of people in the small stakes make. You have to realize that in these small stakes you are short stacked and by over betting a 3 bet preflop will result in all your chips in the pot by the river.

You just have A high, its a drawing hand and you shouldnt mind if 2 or 3 ppl see the flop. I prefer to limp in the blinds and play it from there. but a reraise is by no means a bad choice just making 18 to go is.

if you raise make it 9 - 12. 18 is just insane.

then he min raises. a pure sign of weakness. what he is probably looking for is to take control of the hand and see the river card or check it down. but he can easily have AA (doubt it), KK,QQ, JJ, 1010, AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A 9, KQ, KJ, K10 of spades, or even the 98 of spades. all those hands you can make a valid point to min raising that flop.

Now we go off your image an play. Your hand range. AA, KK,QQ, JJ, maybe 1010, AK and AQ most likely. So right off the bat he knows that you dont have the nuts (KQ) so there is always a chance you will lay it down to a raise. if you call he will know that he is probably beat and he will get an extra card on the river to suck out.


If you would of played it properly. Call in the small blind. now the flop you bet 6$ and he raises you to 12, you pop it up to 30$ he pushes you have the worst hand and can easily fold. AND you saved yourself 10$, but you also gave your self full control of the hand and to take it down.

Or you could of check called the flop and pray for a spade so you can value bet like you hit the flush and get to see the outcome of the hand. once again, if he comes over the top on the turn or river, you are beat and you can lay it down.

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no idea wtf this is all about.

PF is fine. Fold to the flop raise is fine.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

Wow that board sucks

I either C/F or CRAI on this board - what can he have that he'll fold in position?

With no reads I probably CRAI here, but I play at Party, ymmv.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

[ QUOTE ]
First mistake. Preflop, why in the world would you over bet the flop when you are in the small blind. This by far the biggest mistake i see a lot of people in the small stakes make. You have to realize that in these small stakes you are short stacked and by over betting a 3 bet preflop will result in all your chips in the pot by the river.

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I raised to $18 to win the pot before the flop. A PSR is to make it $11.50 more but its needs to be more since I am OOP plus there is a raiser plus a caller I want to get rid of.

IMO the worst case scenario is I raise $9-12, investing money into a pot which I will have to play OOP against two callers.

[ QUOTE ]
If you would of played it properly. Call in the small blind. now the flop you bet 6$ and he raises you to 12, you pop it up to 30$ he pushes you have the worst hand and can easily fold. AND you saved yourself 10$, but you also gave your self full control of the hand and to take it down.

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If I'm honest I think your idea of 'playing the hand properly' is a bad one. A late pos raise followed by a button call could mean both players have two random cards and therefore it is correct to raise AK even though it is a 'drawing hand' since it is a favourite against thier massively wide range.

The fact i raise PF and lead at the pot shows a lot of strength and gives me confidence that I am beat on the flop. Calling from the SB as you suggest puts you in a much tougher spot since Villain could now raise with any number of hands which could have outdrawn AK because you let it in cheaply. In this scenario I would be likely to lose more money since Villain cant put us on AK and would push with a far wider range

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

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B/F is horrible here imo. People do stupid things in reraised pots.

[/ QUOTE ] think about how it looks to him. I raise, this guy reraises, flop comes AJT and he bets. Do I want to make a move? MMm maybe not this time. it's just not a spot people make a ton of moves in IME.


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Here is how this hand often plays out from standard donkey unknown at $100 NL.

Villain is dealt 88 and calls a raise, we reraise and he thinks to himself if I flop a set I can win a ton of money. He calls. Flop comes A J T, we bet, he thinks "wow there's a lot of money out there, maybe this guy has KK or QQ and will fold if I minraise." Villain minraises, we shove. "Well pot odd, etc. I'm not folding." Villain calls and bemoans his bad luck as he's always losing races.

(Add any number of one pair/combo or naked draw type hands here).

I fold everything and even I'm not folding to some unkown minraising my flop bet when I have tptk in a reraised pot.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

Hadji Slayer,

A pot sized reraise is to 14.5. Raising more than potsized is very standard when you are oop and are facing more than one opponent.

AKs is not "just a drawing hand". It is very often "the best hand" preflop. Therefore we want value for our hand. We certainly like to take it down preflop, but if we get called our opponents are usually making a mistake and need to get lucky.

So we raise. We need to raise enough that it will be a mistake for our opponents to call with their hands. If we only raise to 9, our opponents can correctly call with almost any two cards because the pot odds + implied odds combined with the fact that they have position justifies a call.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

Terrible flop, without a spade I fold.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

Fold works for me.. board has lot of bad comings.

Re: AK LAYDOWN? NL100
 

bet/fold is perfectly fine here. Well played.