Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

I'm not able to locate any reviews on this book. Is there a link someone can provide me with if it has been reviewed anywhere? I searched and also checked about 8 pages back, but didn't find anything. Also, I never heard of the author. What's his story?

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Sit 'n Go Strategy and Professional No-Limit Hold 'em have just come out and very few people even have them yet. But in time there should be a bunch of reviews and comments here.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

I received mine today and it looks very good upon skimming. I would be interested to hear what some of the experienced SNG players think.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Is there any money to be made in SNGs anymore?

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any money to be made in SNGs anymore?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you're good at them.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any money to be made in SNGs anymore?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes if you write a book about them

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any money to be made in SNGs anymore?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you play on Party.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any money to be made in SNGs anymore?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you are the Casino collecting the rake.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But in time there should be a bunch of reviews and comments here.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not a full review, but a few comments. I have read the Intro and Part One: Low Blind Play. The author is not explicit, but low blind play appears to refer to the 1st two blind levels in a SnG.

My comment after reading those first 60 pages is that I would not recommend this book for a SnG newbie. The strategy analysis presented in the book requires too much judgment for anyone who is not yet at least holding his own at lower level games (i.e. up to $11 buy in), if not higher.

I have no specific, detailed criticism about the strategy at this time, but the recommended lines of play are certainly open to discussion, and the typical newbie does not have the experience and knowledge to evaluate them.

To be specific, most of the strategy is presented in hand analysis. There are 23 hands discussed in Part One. Problem 1 is that little or no information is provided about the buy-in levels for these hands. Thus, the author implicitly is saying that his analysis does not require adjustment, whether the game is a $5 buy-in or a $500 buy-in.

Problem 2 is that the author (again by implication because of the nature of the hands presented) is recommending playing a wider range of hands than generally recommended by most respected players and writers (e.g., standard STT doctrine, other articles on SnGs, etc.).

The problem is not that these speculative hands are unplayable, but that:

1. they are unplayable by newbies;

2. they are playable only by players with above average post-flop skills; and

3. they are playable only in games that have post-flop action.

The author notes the need for post-flop skills in a line or two in the section summary, but the weight of these hands being discussed for a page or two far outweighs a line or two here or there in the section as far as influencing an inexperienced player.

In short, the strategy in Part One of this book is not adequately put in perspective regarding required experience or buy-in levels. Anyone new to SnGs should learn the game from the classic STT Forum posts, and not try to move up to this book until they are holding their own in the $5-10 buy-in range.

For anyone who is at least break-even or better at those buy-ins, based on what I have read so far, I would recommend this book to stimulate your strategic thinking.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Any good SnG book stands and falls with the chapter on ICM.

Does this book offer a shortcut for the Malmuth, Weitzman or any other chipvalue formula?

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Hi Guys,

I'll try to monitor the comments posted here.

dthf, glad you're liking the book.

benfranklin, I don't have a copy of the book yet so I can't refer to exact page/chapter numbers. However, there is a chapter devoted to buy-in differences in Part IV. Also, I do mention widening/narrowing low-blind play as a function of skill level. As you point out, the hand analyses serve to guide the book along -- is there a particular hand you would advise playing differently? If so, I would be glad to discuss it.

Shandrax, there is a chapter on ICM, and playing to maximize equity rather than chips is a recurring theme in the book.

Best Regards,
Collin

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is a chapter devoted to buy-in differences in Part IV.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a single page (page 234) devoted to buy-in differences in Part Four. There, it states that the only thing that we can know for certain is that the $530 player wants to gamble for more money than the $11 player. The page goes on to say that the higher levels have a higher proportion of good players. This is close to being a tautology, and provides no useful information.

The differences encountered in moving up just one level, such as from the $22s to the $33s, have been discussed in great detail in the STT forum, and such discussions have even occasionally provided strategic information.

Again, my only point at this time is that this is not a book for beginning players.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

I don't have the book. What would concern me is this: SNGs have changed dramatically. Three years ago, 4 people would be out in the first hand, in SNGs up to $30. I played a $5 on FT two days ago for the first time in six months. The first hand folded to the blinds.

Even this $5 level was ridiculously tight. It was either fold or push. One player was playing poker. ME. No one else. The poker player won it, but it wasn't any fun at all.

If the book doesn't address how they've changed and how the SNG player has to adjust, then it's not going to work. I made my first roll on SNGs. Now, I wouldn't care to play them for any reason other than breaking the monotony of regular cash games. They are nowhere near as lucrative as they were once.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there is a chapter devoted to buy-in differences in Part IV.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a single page (page 234) devoted to buy-in differences in Part Four. There, it states that the only thing that we can know for certain is that the $530 player wants to gamble for more money than the $11 player. The page goes on to say that the higher levels have a higher proportion of good players. This is close to being a tautology, and provides no useful information.

The differences encountered in moving up just one level, such as from the $22s to the $33s, have been discussed in great detail in the STT forum, and such discussions have even occasionally provided strategic information.

Again, my only point at this time is that this is not a book for beginning players.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true, this is critical in whether I buy this book or not.

I am so tired of hearing SnG strategy, and then learning that it wouldn't work well at my buy in. Then, being told I'm stupid because I should have known to adjust. Adjust? Really? Don't you think I'd like to learn HOW to adjust?

It's quite true that SnGs have tightened up at lower levels. I think they have gotten a little easier (or I could be on a good run, who knows). I stay tight, but I raise with a lot of hands in late position, MOST DEFINITELY GET A CALLER, and when they don't hit, they check/fold to my flop bet. It's like players at lower levels are gold mines these days, but I wonder if people are still trying to play them the way they did a few years ago. Don't know.

Anyhow, Collin please address (at some point) how you teach people to truly adjust your advice for buy in level. This is something that is so overlooked.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have the book. What would concern me is this: SNGs have changed dramatically. Three years ago, 4 people would be out in the first hand, in SNGs up to $30. I played a $5 on FT two days ago for the first time in six months. The first hand folded to the blinds.

Even this $5 level was ridiculously tight. It was either fold or push. One player was playing poker. ME. No one else. The poker player won it, but it wasn't any fun at all.

If the book doesn't address how they've changed and how the SNG player has to adjust, then it's not going to work. I made my first roll on SNGs. Now, I wouldn't care to play them for any reason other than breaking the monotony of regular cash games. They are nowhere near as lucrative as they were once.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with this. I used to love SNGs because the game would become short-handed so quickly and then real play would begin. No longer...everyone's tight as a drum and you're lucky to be down to 5 after 4 or 5 rounds. The games have definitely changed and I only play SNGs now when I am short on time.

I'm still going to read the book though...just waiting for it to get here!

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Any chance this book will become an item for purchase with Stars FPP's?

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]


If the book doesn't address how they've changed and how the SNG player has to adjust, then it's not going to work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was hoping for something on that topic too. I have only read the first 100 pages or so, but so far there has been no discussion about actual online playing conditions, either changes over time or differences between different sites or buyin levels.

I tried to find something about it in the index or contents, but found nothing.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a copy of the book yet

[/ QUOTE ]

are you serieus? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any chance this book will become an item for purchase with Stars FPP's?

[/ QUOTE ]
I e-mailed Stars and asked them to add it to the FPP store. Let's see what happens...

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Darn, i just ordered the book and i'm a beginning player. i only play the 3:40's and the rake is killing me.. i was hoping this book would help me... but i'll read it and see. anyo9ne else concerned about the content?

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Darn, i just ordered the book and i'm a beginning player. i only play the 3:40's and the rake is killing me.. i was hoping this book would help me... but i'll read it and see. anyo9ne else concerned about the content?

[/ QUOTE ]


Don't sweat it mate, II haven't read it, so we need BenF to comfirm, but if you just stop playing the fancy poker early levels and focus most of your effort on late sng strategy and ICM, you will be just fine and learn lots [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]

If this is true, this is critical in whether I buy this book or not.

I am so tired of hearing SnG strategy, and then learning that it wouldn't work well at my buy in. Then, being told I'm stupid because I should have known to adjust. Adjust? Really? Don't you think I'd like to learn HOW to adjust?


[/ QUOTE ]

I have read about 100 pages. As the author states above, he relies heavily on hand analysis in presenting strategy.

There are 23 hands in Part one, and I have read about 30-35 hands in Part 2, with virtual no discussion of buy-in levels. To confirm my own impressions, I just skimmed back through those hands. I saw a buy-in mentioned once, and that was for an equity calculation example, not directly relevant to the strategy discussion.

I am disappointed by what I consider to be a glaring omission in this book. Discussing a SnG hand without knowing the buy-in seems to me to make no more sense than discussing a NL cash hand without knowing the stack sizes. This is so important that mods in the STT forum will lock any thread that does not have the buy-in level stated in the subject line.

I am not a SnG expert, having played only at levels from around $5 up to anything under $30. But even in that range, I have noticed differences in opponent play and what I consider to be correct strategy. I have already seen a couple of hands in this book that I would play differently at different levels even within my range.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If this is true, this is critical in whether I buy this book or not.

I am so tired of hearing SnG strategy, and then learning that it wouldn't work well at my buy in. Then, being told I'm stupid because I should have known to adjust. Adjust? Really? Don't you think I'd like to learn HOW to adjust?


[/ QUOTE ]

I have read about 100 pages. As the author states above, he relies heavily on hand analysis in presenting strategy.

There are 23 hands in Part one, and I have read about 30-35 hands in Part 2, with virtual no discussion of buy-in levels. To confirm my own impressions, I just skimmed back through those hands. I saw a buy-in mentioned once, and that was for an equity calculation example, not directly relevant to the strategy discussion.

I am disappointed by what I consider to be a glaring omission in this book. Discussing a SnG hand without knowing the buy-in seems to me to make no more sense than discussing a NL cash hand without knowing the stack sizes. This is so important that mods in the STT forum will lock any thread that does not have the buy-in level stated in the subject line.

I am not a SnG expert, having played only at levels from around $5 up to anything under $30. But even in that range, I have noticed differences in opponent play and what I consider to be correct strategy. I have already seen a couple of hands in this book that I would play differently at different levels even within my range.

[/ QUOTE ]

well i think at the level this book is supposed to help players (20/30/40/50-2000$) it's more about playing and knowing your oppenents insteed of making standard moves against overall bad players (1-11$)

maybe i'm wrong and there is a big difference in gameplay at the high stakes level..
But i think it's more like knowing your opponents sharkscoping them, taking notes and making your call/push ranges on this info.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Hi Guys,

I would really like to reply, and it looks like I just may have the chance soon [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-----

July 26, 2007 07:29:00 AM LAUREL MD US Out for delivery
July 26, 2007 07:00:00 AM LAUREL MD US Arrival Scan
July 26, 2007 06:31:00 AM LINTHICUM MD US Departure Scan
July 26, 2007 05:59:00 AM LINTHICUM MD US Arrival Scan
July 26, 2007 04:19:00 AM LOUISVILLE KY US Departure Scan
July 26, 2007 01:47:00 AM LOUISVILLE KY US Arrival Scan
July 25, 2007 08:33:28 PM US Carrier notified to pick up package
July 25, 2007 07:05:00 PM SPARKS NV US Departure Scan
July 25, 2007 06:39:00 PM RENO NV US Shipment picked up from seller's facility

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Does the author have to pay for his own book?

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does the author have to pay for his own book?

[/ QUOTE ]

2+2's audience is so loyal and demanding that they send the books out to pre-orders first the very same day the books come in from the printer. You have to understand how rare this is in the book industry, for example my advanced copy of Read'em & Reep was given to me to review 4-5 months before the book came out. Mason should be praised for this strategy, its a minor inconvenience for the author but a major convenience for the book's fans.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

SnG's (on FTP at least) are not what they used to be. There's lots of tricky players hanging out even at some of the low levels. Maybe not the $1,$2, but quite often in the tokens games $4,$6,$8,$11. And in the $20+ cash and $24 token typically you find at least one good player. The $69 token games should be taken very seriously.

I think on FTP there's quite a few good tourney players who use the low-limit token SnG's to satellite in.

I'm not sure how much benefit there would to have a beginner SnG book, at least for FTP. These days you have to know a lot of poker just to have a chance at SnGs at all.

I'd even say that even the STT forum hasn't really figured this out yet, not completely. It's just not like it used to be (once again, I'm talking FTP only, since I only play there).

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

fwiw, i know someone who hired collin for 3 hrs of coaching for sng's and he told me that collin was very helpfull and definately worthwhile as a coach. He already has increased his roi and made some key points to his play that has helped him alot. I'm not a sng player myself but i think this speaks volumes for collin and his knmowledge.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

scorer, what buyin was that person playing?

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Hi Guys,

I have the book now.

While I will be receiving some author's copies, I went ahead and had the book overnighted. I appreciate *TT*'s point that 2+2 really looks out for their readers, and I strongly agree with the decision to prioritize distribution so that the loyal readers have to wait as little time as possible before receiving. If that means I have to wait a little longer before receiving my own copy, so be it.

Anyway, there seems to be some issue with buyin strategy specifications. To quote JackCase:

[ QUOTE ]
There are 23 hands in Part one, and I have read about 30-35 hands in Part 2, with virtual no discussion of buy-in levels...

I am disappointed by what I consider to be a glaring omission in this book. Discussing a SnG hand without knowing the buy-in seems to me to make no more sense than discussing a NL cash hand without knowing the stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, it is not buyin per se that requires strategy modifications -- rather it is the type of players one is encountering. The reason lower buyins often require a different approach is not because you're only paying $5 or $10 to enter, but because you tend to face more players with a weak, loose-passive style, or maniacs willing to open-shove T T during low blinds, etc.

At the same time, this type of opposition is not guaranteed, and as bustedromo points out, you can certainly find tight-aggressive or trickier players at the lower stakes.

Flip all this around for the higher stakes, where there are more rocks, solid aggressive regulars ... but there can also be plenty of weak players as well.

So rather than cite a particular buy-in, I usually cite the player category or game conditions instead. That way, regardless of the players showing up at your particular buyin, you can adjust.

Let me give a couple of examples.

In Hand 1-1, you might argue that calling with your queens is correct in a $5 buyin. OK, possibly -- but how often do you know by Level I that the player one to your left is tight-aggressive in a $5? Pretty rarely, and if you did, then the advice for that hand would still apply. Similarly with the Hand 3-20 Villain -- the perceptive player will usually be found in higher stakes, and the weak player, lower stakes. But not necessarily, and you still need to be able to adjust if you find these opponents at unexpected stakes.

Similarly, on p. 35, you might say conditions 2 and 3 for Late Position low-blind Value hands are rare in low buyins. But they certainly can apply, so rather than write: "In higher stakes ($100+), you can play this category of hands," I write the more general statement: If the following conditions apply, then you can play Late Position Value Hands. Sure there will be more opportunities in the higher buyins when everyone's folded to you in late position during low blinds and you think your remaining opponents are likely to fold. But this can happen in lower buyins too, (or fail to apply in higher buyins), so I give the general conditions rather than throw out approximations as to what stakes these situations are most likely to arise in.

That said, there are certainly general strategy modifications based on buyin knowledge alone. In Part I, for instance, look at Hand 1-7, Hand 1-14, the section on playable hands during low blinds, etc.

In summary, it is your opponents' styles that require strategy modifications, regardless of whether these players are buying in for $5 or $500 -- and the strategy and hand examples in the book are designed to give you the flexibility to adjust your strategy to succeed, so that you'll be prepared even if you encounter unexpected opposition at a particular buyin.

Best Regards,
Collin

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

Also, please note there is a typo in the introduction on p. 4. The equation should read:

$0.05 = $1,000 Prize / 20,000 Chips

rather than "$1,000 buyin" / 20,000 Chips.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

suzzer99, he plays 55 and up sng's....

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

I believe hand 1-2 was badly played, and I started a post about this in the STTF forum a few days ago.

It seems that the author is afflicted with Fancy Play Syndrome. Also enamored with small pocket pairs and Ace-Rag.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

I haven't recieved my copy yet, but is there any advice on the single table bubble in this book? Upon reading HOH3 and answering problems 37-42 I realized I'm a total donkey at the bubble of these things.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe hand 1-2 was badly played, and I started a post about this in the STTF forum a few days ago.


[/ QUOTE ]

"You must raise KK UTG"?

This is one of those commandments that everyone repeats and no one justifies. A ton of players all say "they'll call your raises at the low buyins" and I'm thinking O RLY? When did these people last play a fivedollar game? Because dude, they don't always. You often find yourself at a table where everyone just folds. It all depends on whether you're raising the first hand or the tenth. If you've folded nine hands and then raise, they notice. The magical days of a table full of donkeys that couldn't wait to bust out are long gone, man.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You must raise KK UTG"?

This is one of those commandments that everyone repeats and no one justifies. A ton of players all say "they'll call your raises at the low buyins" and I'm thinking O RLY? When did these people last play a fivedollar game? Because dude, they don't always. You often find yourself at a table where everyone just folds. It all depends on whether you're raising the first hand or the tenth. If you've folded nine hands and then raise, they notice. The magical days of a table full of donkeys that couldn't wait to bust out are long gone, man.

[/ QUOTE ]Winning the blinds is better than getting stacked because you let some guy in for free with a garbage hand who outflops you.

Limping big hands UTG with the intention of re-raising is alright in some cash games, but in a STT I can't image it is ever correct (not a STT expert, though).

The question isn't one of getting action- limping UTG can often result in playing OOP in a multi way pot. This is TERRIBLE for a hand like KK. You either want to get it heads up or just take the blinds and move on.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are 23 hands in Part one, and I have read about 30-35 hands in Part 2, with virtual no discussion of buy-in levels. To confirm my own impressions, I just skimmed back through those hands. I saw a buy-in mentioned once, and that was for an equity calculation example, not directly relevant to the strategy discussion.

I am disappointed by what I consider to be a glaring omission in this book. Discussing a SnG hand without knowing the buy-in seems to me to make no more sense than discussing a NL cash hand without knowing the stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a ridiculously wrong claim. The main error people usually make is talking about buy-in levels, or blind levels for cash games, or whatever. It's the skill and style of your opponents that matter, NOT buy-in level.

Yes, conditions do change. Which is precisely why you should NOT be talking in terms of buy-in. You should only be talking in terms of opponent tendencies.

Sure, there are some tendencies related to buy-in, or blind level of cash games. But tendencies change, and then live vs. online is of course a difference too. But I've been in ridiculously tight .50/$1 cash limit games, and ridiculously soft and easy $30/$60 games.

Read HoH. He generally doesn't talk about buy-ins, other than to say "major tournament", or "single table online tournament". He talks about player tendencies. Never saw any complaints about that book.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In summary, it is your opponents' styles that require strategy modifications, regardless of whether these players are buying in for $5 or $500 -- and the strategy and hand examples in the book are designed to give you the flexibility to adjust your strategy to succeed, so that you'll be prepared even if you encounter unexpected opposition at a particular buyin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted my answer before I read this, but you explained it better than I did. nh sir.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[Winning the blinds is better than getting stacked because you let some guy in for free with a garbage hand who outflops you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is classic bad advice because it presents only 2 options. Having said that, even if busting postflop with KK is a possible outcome, that does not necessarily mean limping with it is wrong.

Re: Sit \'N Go strategy-reviews?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[Winning the blinds is better than getting stacked because you let some guy in for free with a garbage hand who outflops you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is classic bad advice because it presents only 2 options. Having said that, even if busting postflop with KK is a possible outcome, that does not necessarily mean limping with it is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't say there were only two outcomes. I highlighted the outcome of getting stacked post flop if you let people in cheap because it is a situation that is easy to avoid and there is little value in not avoiding it.

If you look at the rest of my post, what I said is that you really want to avoid playing a multiway pot OOP with KK, and that is the reason you don't limp KK UTG. You would only limp with KK UTG if you believed the value would get from playing your hand deceptively outweighed the value you would get from either winning the blinds or getting called by a weaker hand in a raised pot (which is tremendous value with a strong favorite like KK). My belief is that this kind of deception in a STT is almost never a higher ev that what you get from raising.

BTW, I have no clue as to why we are discussing this. Is limping KK UTG something this book advises or considers?