Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

This is actually a technical question that under other circumstances should be posted on a different forum. But it is topical here.

Obviously if tipping poker dealers was absolutely not allowed, and the ban was stictly enforced, the casinos would have to pay a larger salary and charge a larger rake. Let's go under the assumption that this larger rake was exactly equal to the pay raise the dealers got, in order to make up for no tips.

We can also presume that some casinos would up the rake by smaller amounts and get less competant dealers while some would charge more and get better dealers. (The very best dealers might look for different work, at least those who have the skills to succeed elsewhere.) If, after a time, it looked liked the customers wanted better, (or worse) dealers, hiring practices and rakes would be adjusted.

Here is my question: Under this scheme, would reasonably good dealers who chose to remain dealers make as much or more than they do now? If not how would things change for them?

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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would reasonably good dealers who chose to remain dealers make as much or more than they do now?

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It would be about a $12-14/hr job with benefits is my guess.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

Post it in Poker Theory please.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

I think the very best dealers would do better and the majority of dealers would make less.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I think the very best dealers would do better and the majority of dealers would make less.

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If you understood my post, you answer is equivalent to saying that you think a few cardrooms could get away with a bigger rake increase because it would allow them to hire the best dealers. Is that what you meant?

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

Given that dealer quality improved dramatically when tip pooling was eliminated in AC, I think dealer quality would go down if tipping were eliminated (at least in cash games). This would be the case whether or not they made more or less. There would simply be less incentive to deal quickly.

Tournaments might be different.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

Tip pooling makes the game quality suck. Keep the tipping system as long as the dealers get to keep their individual tips. The best dealers should and do make more than the average ones do.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I think the very best dealers would do better and the majority of dealers would make less.

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If you understood my post, you answer is equivalent to saying that you think a few cardrooms could get away with a bigger rake increase because it would allow them to hire the best dealers. Is that what you meant?

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I think the few games that demand the very best dealers would go out and get them. I think right now the dealing market is not efficient in that a room will have low limit players that "overtip" dealers allowing the high limit players to free ride. Currently the people that demand the very best dealers pay the least and those that will settle for the worst dealers pay the most.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

I don't have an answer, but I know that in Australia, dealers and casino staff aren't allowed to accept tips, and they were mostly competent at the Aussie Millions.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I don't have an answer, but I know that in Australia, dealers and casino staff aren't allowed to accept tips, and they were mostly competent at the Aussie Millions.

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Agreed.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I don't have an answer, but I know that in Australia, dealers and casino staff aren't allowed to accept tips, and they were mostly competent at the Aussie Millions.

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How large of an event was this? Do they have to hire temp dealers for it? The underlying problem with the WSOP is that it is so big that they have to get dealers from somewhere. There are a few dealers that just like to travel the circuit, but most of the temp dealers would rather be working a full time job rather than working as a temp.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I don't have an answer, but I know that in Australia, dealers and casino staff aren't allowed to accept tips, and they were mostly competent at the Aussie Millions.

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Agreed.

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And I know that when I played at Burswood in WA the dealers made between 15-19 dollars an hour with benefits, since tipping is not allowed in casinos, and generally never done ever in Oz.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I don't have an answer, but I know that in Australia, dealers and casino staff aren't allowed to accept tips, and they were mostly competent at the Aussie Millions.

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just guessing, but that is probably because there is much less tipping in australia than US in all service jobs (waiters, taxi drivers,etc). when i was out there a few years ago, an australian told me that they almost view tips as insults, like they arent able to take care of themselves. employers apparently compensate them fairly, and they dont have the tip-crazy culture the US has.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

Several interesting aspects of this question:
Would the poker rooms better reward dealers as a group than players,
Would poker rooms better reward better dealers than players
Would the total amount going to dealers as a whole increase
Would some cardrooms attempt to attract better dealers by paying more
Would the pay vary greatly at the same room among dealers or would it be basically flat absent seniority
My algebra, based on WAG, is that dealer pay would go down because an acceptable level of competence/incompetence could be achieved at a lower hourly rates than most average dealers currently make, much less better dealers (who presumably make more by getting out more hands by general speed/keeping game going, thus variance in tipping evening out). Of course, there may be different definitions of what constitutes a good dealer.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

David,

In England tipping dealers is illegal, so maybe you should go there and do a case study. I used to play a lot in Birmingham(UK) and there was a mix of good and bad dealers, like there is here. At the place I played most often they charged 5 pound an hour sessions. There was another place with worse dealers that only charged 3 pounds an hour, but because the game was a little smaller(which may have had something to do with the bad dealers) I didn't go there.

One thing was that people who were good tended to rise to management positions, so they didn't stay dealers as long as they would have if they worked in America.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

That's why electronic poker tables with no human dealers is the way to go. Alot of old fogey poker players won't like it, but in 10 years it will be VERY RARE to see an actual human dealing poker in a B&M. Mark my words because they are very true. So in my humble view your question is moot. There is no need to raise the rake to compensate for dealers not making 'tips.' Just get rid of the dealers, and then you get rid of the 'tips.'

Everybody wins with electronic tables. The casino makes more money per hour. The players get more hands per hour. The players don't have to tip. The players don't have to endure the missed deals and numerous mistakes dealers are constantly making.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

In 10 years, I'll be back just to say like Brent Carter did to Phil Hellmuth...

"I was busy marking your words."

I guess if casinos were interested in the bottom line, poker would've already been eliminated all together.

How did that Hollywood Park e-poker room fare?

I guess everyone will just stay home and play on teh internets.

Believe it or not some people just don't trust machines... or teh internets.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

DS,

Does Brandi toke as well as the tokes she receives from her "other" job?

BTW, I never gives any womans my monies either playa!

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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That's why electronic poker tables with no human dealers is the way to go. Alot of old fogey poker players won't like it, but in 10 years it will be VERY RARE to see an actual human dealing poker in a B&M.

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Wasn't the same thing said about blackjack tables 10 years ago?

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

As an ex UK casino dealer i can safely say that not being allowed legally to accept tips, but having a higher basic rate of pay, results in an overall net loss of earining compared to dealers in casinos that do allow tipping. It looks good on paper but sucks when you come to spend anything. Not tipping does also, in my experience, lead to less interested dealers in some cases, but also less voracious dealers too, who concentrate on the game rather than angling for tips.

So in summary there are pros and cons, the cons mainly being felt by the dealers that dont get tips. In a casino setting rather than a straight cardroom, the fact that the dealers are paid a higher salary and dont rely on tips doesnt mean the casino has to charge more for anything as all the cash that would have been tipped will eventually find its way into the drop boxes.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

live poker is stupid, it makes no sense

online poker is all that matters

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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live poker is stupid, it makes no sense

online poker is all that matters

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so, so wrong

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I don't have an answer, but I know that in Australia, dealers and casino staff aren't allowed to accept tips, and they were mostly competent at the Aussie Millions.

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How large of an event was this? Do they have to hire temp dealers for it? The underlying problem with the WSOP is that it is so big that they have to get dealers from somewhere. There are a few dealers that just like to travel the circuit, but most of the temp dealers would rather be working a full time job rather than working as a temp.

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13 events ranging from $550 to $100,000 buy-in. Main Event had 747 runners at $10,500 each. I don't think there would have been any temp dealers, or any from interstate. But Crown has seen a lot of experienced dealers leave in recent times, so the dealers were probably even better in 2005/2006.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I don't have an answer, but I know that in Australia, dealers and casino staff aren't allowed to accept tips, and they were mostly competent at the Aussie Millions.

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just guessing, but that is probably because there is much less tipping in australia than US in all service jobs (waiters, taxi drivers,etc). when i was out there a few years ago, an australian told me that they almost view tips as insults, like they arent able to take care of themselves. employers apparently compensate them fairly, and they dont have the tip-crazy culture the US has.

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I'm not sure about the recipient of a tip being insulted, but you're right, tipping is rare. And tipping dealers is illegal in all Australian casino, although tipping wait staff is allowed, though not expected.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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How large of an event was this? Do they have to hire temp dealers for it? The underlying problem with the WSOP is that it is so big that they have to get dealers from somewhere. There are a few dealers that just like to travel the circuit, but most of the temp dealers would rather be working a full time job rather than working as a temp.

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Crown Casino does not hire temp dealers for the Aussie Millions; we use all our own permanent staff.

On a side note, whilst I was at the WSOP this year, I was quite surprised by the number of dealers I met who asked how they could get a job dealing at the Aussie Millions. I had to apologise and say that we did not hire casual labour for the event.

I got a bigger shock when they then said, "what if I emigrate?" [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

I always assumed that poker dealers didn't get much, if any, benefits. If that is the case, and if benefits did become part of their pay, then they would certainly get a lot less money. Benefits are very expensive these days. But they would probably get more value considering that if they bought their own health insurance/etc. it would cost a lot of money. Some people would just rather have the cash.

Whether the best dealers made more/less money? I suppose they would get a higher wage, just like many other jobs where the best performers get a better wage. But it still seems that they would make less. Almost all would likely make less because so many people way overtip and the casino/cardroom isn't going to overpay like that.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

I'm sure lots of them would be upset they now were forced to pay taxes on all of their earnings.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

Dealers should be replaced by e-tables that shuffle properly

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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Dealers should be replaced by e-tables that shuffle properly

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Sorry, I want cards, chips and people.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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live poker is stupid, it makes no sense

online poker is all that matters

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so, so wrong

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are you over 30, just curious?

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

One idea is that the regular winning players will be hurt
and the losing players, the ones who make giant results oriented tips, will be helped. It may even lead to the loss of enough regular players to kill off middle limit games etc etc, end of the world scenario.


D.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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live poker is stupid, it makes no sense

online poker is all that matters

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Wipe your nose, pull up your pants and take a shower. There is a world outside.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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Dealers should be replaced by e-tables that shuffle properly

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Sorry, I want cards, chips and people.

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You still play against people. Just with a deck that's shuffled properly, and you don't need to tip, either.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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One idea is that the regular winning players will be hurt
and the losing players, the ones who make giant results oriented tips, will be helped. It may even lead to the loss of enough regular players to kill off middle limit games etc etc, end of the world scenario.


D.

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The problem with this concept is that it assumes that the only regular players are winning players. Not at all the case. Also, the rooms with the highest rake, such as Commerce, tend to be the most successful, also suggesting that games aren't necessarily hurt by more rake, and may in fact be better off by getting rid of the marginal nit pro.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I don't have an answer, but I know that in Australia, dealers and casino staff aren't allowed to accept tips, and they were mostly competent at the Aussie Millions.

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And I know that when I played at Burswood in WA the dealers made between 15-19 dollars an hour with benefits, since tipping is not allowed in casinos, and generally never done ever in Oz.

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Don't the Aussie casinos also take a ridiculous amount in rake?

See this thread in the B&M Forum from May where AshtrayBroom asks "1/2NL game at my B&M beatable? (Crown Casino, Melbourne, Australia" and in the OP indicates a 10% rake upto $6 in $1/2NL and a $5 hourly time charge.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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Here is my question: Under this scheme, would reasonably good dealers who chose to remain dealers make as much or more than they do now? If not how would things change for them?

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I'd say they make at least as much with the upside of making more. only they truly know how much they make so if they were not meeting this rate they could go elsewhere as its easy to imagine casinos vying for good dealers until bots take over.

the best ones should have an edge.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

I posted a similar reply in another thread, but basically why do dealers make so much? It really makes no sense to me. They aren't doing a hard job. They are using a very small portion of their brain to count some chips and throw some cards. As far as i'm concerned if a dealer makes $12-15/hr they should be happy.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

word is we're getting all electronic poker room here in a few months. I'll let you know how it goes...

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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I think the very best dealers would do better and the majority of dealers would make less.

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If you understood my post, you answer is equivalent to saying that you think a few cardrooms could get away with a bigger rake increase because it would allow them to hire the best dealers. Is that what you meant?

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Would the dealers get paid hourly, or basically keep the extra rake in the games they deal? If it is the latter, the better dealers tend to get more hands out per hour, and thus would make more money.

Re: Suppose Tipping Poker Dealers Was Illegal
 

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Let's go under the assumption that this larger rake was exactly equal to the pay raise the dealers got, in order to make up for no tips.


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This is a bad assumption. It's the same fallacy that baseball teams pass on salary costs to the fans, instead of just charging what the market will bear.

Casinos will pay dealers the minimum that they can get away with, according to the laws of supply and demand for dealers. There may be a larger demand for better dealers, because they can generate more rake and more $$$ for casinos. But it's pointless for the casino to just pass all the additional rake $$$ from fast dealers right back to the dealer, if they did that, why hire a great dealer? Instead they will pocket some of that additional rake for themselves. Dealers do not have the power to stop this from happening.

Thus dealer salary would go down.