I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

I just played my first time in a B&M casino, 1/2 NL $200 max buy-in, and I couldn't believe how many people liked to straddle. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they are doing this. Is there some sort of strategic advantage to betting blind in a poor position that I'm simply not seeing? The table was anything but tight (the standard pre-flop raise was about 10-12 times the BB. Is this the norm for live games as well?) so it's not like the straddle was there to get some action going. Any insight would be appreciated.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Some people like to gamble.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
the standard pre-flop raise was about 10-12 times the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is most likely because of the straddle. If the table is tight, it'll loosen the game up. If the table is already loose, it's just to gambo.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just played my first time in a B&M casino, 1/2 NL $200 max buy-in, and I couldn't believe how many people liked to straddle. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they are doing this. Is there some sort of strategic advantage to betting blind in a poor position that I'm simply not seeing? The table was anything but tight (the standard pre-flop raise was about 10-12 times the BB. Is this the norm for live games as well?) so it's not like the straddle was there to get some action going. Any insight would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP location: BC, Canada

Notice the significant amounts of yellow, red, green and orange on this pie chart.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Vancouver.png

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

You need two, "gambo gambo".

If it's a tight table, it puts pressure on the big blind - nobody gets a free flop. As last to act pre-flop, you can bet big and take down a bunch of limpers without a flop.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

What's "West Asian"?

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling... *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by *TT*

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Please refer to JSD's guide for instructions on the purpose of the straddle. You will be amazed at how much you did not know about playing poker with a straddle.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

I personally do it to create a false image, people see you straddling and assume you're there to gamble, and don't notice as much if you are playing tight. Also when you do wake up to a big a hand there is usually a lot of dead money in the pot and you can make a big raise and often times people won't believe you and play back at you.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

It's not only to gamble. It's also a way to get a game to play bigger. a 1/3 game becomes a 2/5. A 2/5 becomes a 5/10 and so on.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

In NL Hold'em your playing for your opponent's stacks, its not just to win the hand. The true goal of a straddle is to inflate the size of the pot, while placing your opponents out of their comfort zone - all while showing that the hero is willing to gambool (of course this is a false perception because the hero's investment for image and post size inflation is minimal). The key is you must know when to get away from your hand when playing out of position.

Alternatively there is the Mississippi straddle which is on the button. If your card room allows it and your a strong post-flop NL player than this can be so ideal that to pass on your straddle oportunity would be -EV if the conditions are right.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Straddling halves effective stack sizes. Many people don't adjust properly.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Hmmm I never thought about trying to create a (false) loose image. The action was insanely loose even without the straddle so I don't think it was to loosen up the table. The problem in this case with them straddling to inflate the pot is most of these guys were getting stacked left and right, so pretty much all they were doing is creating a nice big pot for guys like me who waited for decent cards. Mind you, it was only one night, and my first time playing live, so obviously I have a pretty small sample size to make judgements about their skill, I suppose, but for the most part they tended to call any raise pre-flop when they straddled so I'm guessing the main reason for them straddling was just to gambool. (BTW yes there are lot of Asians here but at this particular table I didn't have one - it was actually white guys and one East Indian fellow who kept straddling. I was at Cascades casino - the Riverrock is the casino where a lot of the Asian players play.)

LOL @ JSD's guide. Good stuff.

TT: How common is the Mississippi straddle? I didn't see it when I was playing so I assume it's not allowed, since this would make much more sense than rasing blind under the gun.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
TT: How common is the Mississippi straddle? I didn't see it when I was playing so I assume it's not allowed, since this would make much more sense than raising blind under the gun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only seen this at the WSOP, my understanding is they allow it in Tunica but I haven't gone yet.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Yes, they have the Miss straddle in Tunica.
You are allowed to straddle from any non-blind position and the pre-flop play begins to the left of the straddler.

So if I straddle on the button then preflop it's up to the SB right-away as to whether to call or not.


While the ideas in here are correct regarding why a good player might want to straddle it only answers part of the question.Why he should want to do this is to inflate the pot, have a loose image, etc.
Why most others are doing it is because they like to play a little bit crazy and gamble it up which includes such things as live-straddling and checking or betting in the dark, etc.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
In NL Hold'em your playing for your opponent's stacks, its not just to win the hand. The true goal of a straddle is to inflate the size of the pot, while placing your opponents out of their comfort zone - all while showing that the hero is willing to gambool (of course this is a false perception because the hero's investment for image and post size inflation is minimal). The key is you must know when to get away from your hand when playing out of position.

Alternatively there is the Mississippi straddle which is on the button. If your card room allows it and your a strong post-flop NL player than this can be so ideal that to pass on your straddle oportunity would be -EV if the conditions are right.

[/ QUOTE ]

*TT*--

Indeed.

Also, you get last action preflop. As much as we all love to consider ourselves postflop experts, today's games are crushable before the flop, and having a good sense of hot-and-cold equity, fold equity, and the occasional Sklansky-Chubukovish consideration can make you lots of money. Having last action only amplifies that.

Also, in many games people will limp loosely but raise a straddle tightly. Or, in games with people who think in absolute dollar terms, they will still open for $20 or $25 in a $2-$5 game after I straddle for $10. Those are obvious mistakes that the straddle induces. (I know you're a pot-manipulation guy, TT.)

These pot-manipulation effects also propogate. Against absolute-dollar-number opponents I just want to bump up the stakes, and I'm willing to pay extra blinds to do it. They bet $100 into $500 pots (when they would also bet $100 into $200 pots) so often that I'm willing to invest the extra blinds. Even a simple bet flop + bet turn bluff sequence, that costs me roughly $30 on the flop and $60 on the turn, can be enormously effective against opponents who can't see past the "big" (or even "medium") $60 bet in that same $2-$5 game.

And, of course, the image effects are great, though I tend never to have trouble getting people to think I'm an action player.

--Nate

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's "West Asian"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at the graphic's properties, it came from a Wikipedia article on Vancouver demographics.

This section of the article lists Iranians and Afghanis as examples of West Asians.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

I've honestly seen more straddling at the tables since High Stakes Poker came on the air, most of the donks dont even know why theyre doing it and probably do it because they think they're being cool. I even had one guy ask me recently if I wanted to run a turn and river twice when I had a huge 90/10 lead- I just looked at him funny and said "no thanks".

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Recently i was playing in a 1/2 game and it was mixed as players came in and out as far as loose or tight. Then a guy who is loose that i had played with before sits down to my right. After about 30 minutes he drops the straddle. I make a big deal about it before the cards are dealt saying "uh oh the straddle's on now boys and girsl". Now i'm under the gun and wake up with pocket kings. So i raise his straddle from UTG and get a couple of callers and he "must protect his straddle" and re-pops me. I ended up stacking him and he rebuys.

So the next hand i'm having a good time and for the first time in my life decide i will straddle on purpose (did on accident before but thats another story). A raise and a couple of calls in front of me and i wake up with Aces! I re-pop it and get three calls - Ace on the flop!

I straddled the rest of the night!

The thing is because the straddle was there - nobody believed i had a big hand as the common thing for the straddler is to pop the heck out of the pot no matter what he has if the action in front of him was standard (limpers or one raise with callers). Going with this it is a great way to win a huge pot if you were to wake up with a big hand in the straddle as it will be disguised as a typical straddle play. Before that night i had never really been a big fan of it.

As for "is it standard for 1/2 players to raise 10-12 times the big blind? In the casino's i play it usually is a raise anywhere from $10 - $25 for the initial raiser at the 1/2 tables. Especially if they are not spreading many higher limit games at the time or if the higher limit games are full. The higher limit players will play 1/2 while waiting for their table and they play 1/2 as if they are at a higher limit table pushing the pot size.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

This is a bit of a hijack but...

In places where a straddle is permitted from any non-blind position, what happens if multiple people want to straddle on the same hand? I'm not talking about straddling and re-straddling (as is not uncommon in rooms where the straddle(s) are always directly to the left of the big blind). Is there a priority of who gets to straddle first? Also, are restraddles permitted with a Mississippi straddle and, if so, can they also be from any position?

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

I've actually gotten the straddle going a couple times in 2/5 and 5/10 games that I've played - mainly to avert a table getting a little too tight.

It was extremely successful last time, I pissed off two cheap nits and they were replaced by major donators. Straddle +EV (even if it cost me a few bucks) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Aces on the straddle, I think that's the real reason anyone does it. NH sir.

I've never seen it done in any position except for UTG, so I'm interested to see how the situation with multiple straddlers in a game that allows it in any non-blind position is handled.

I've never straddled. I can't seem to put the money up possibly dead ... which is a silly statement since I'll occasionally call in the dark as a result of the one time I did so with aces.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a bit of a hijack but...

In places where a straddle is permitted from any non-blind position, what happens if multiple people want to straddle on the same hand? I'm not talking about straddling and re-straddling (as is not uncommon in rooms where the straddle(s) are always directly to the left of the big blind). Is there a priority of who gets to straddle first? Also, are restraddles permitted with a Mississippi straddle and, if so, can they also be from any position?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for every room, but at the Rio, during the WSOP, they allowed a modified Mississippi straddle where you can straddle from the button. In cases where both players wanted to straddle (UTG and Button), the priority went to the button and only he could straddle.

Assuming there is a logic here, I would assume priority goes to the "best position" in cases of multiple players wanting to straddle ... but I don't know for sure.

--Headhunter

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Wow at the Mississippi straddle. I have never seen it, but it is basically the same a straddling from the button in a 3-handed game. That gives the button a significant strategic advantage. Under most game situations that I can think of, I would straddle from the button every single time.

Is the straddle in the game a set amount (ie 2x big blind), or can the stradler choose the amount he wishes to straddle?

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow at the Mississippi straddle. I have never seen it, but it is basically the same a straddling from the button in a 3-handed game. That gives the button a significant strategic advantage. Under most game situations that I can think of, I would straddle from the button every single time.

Is the straddle in the game a set amount (ie 2x big blind), or can the stradler choose the amount he wishes to straddle?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many rooms will not allow a straddle on the button in a 3-handed game for this exact reason.

PS: Straddling in a limit game is pure gamble, it has little strategic results except to help loosen the table for a hand.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow at the Mississippi straddle. I have never seen it, but it is basically the same a straddling from the button in a 3-handed game. That gives the button a significant strategic advantage. Under most game situations that I can think of, I would straddle from the button every single time.

Is the straddle in the game a set amount (ie 2x big blind), or can the stradler choose the amount he wishes to straddle?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many rooms will not allow a straddle on the button in a 3-handed game for this exact reason.

PS: Straddling in a limit game is pure gamble, it has little strategic results except to help loosen the table for a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This used to be a very standard rule (no straddle in a 3 handed game). The advent of MS Straddle has weakened this position a bit.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Anyone know if straddling is acceptable in WA cardrooms or tribals ?

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

I dont see why it it wouldnt, technically the straddle is put on by the first person to act, so it's the same thing as raising the minimum except youre not looking at your cards.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont see why it it wouldnt, technically the straddle is put on by the first person to act, so it's the same thing as raising the minimum except youre not looking at your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh no. A live straddle (as most people are discussing) means that the person placing it has not yet acted and gets to act last preflop. It is not just a blind bet.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Sometimes at Canterbury, the table will agree to a round of straddles, this can make a crazy table even more so. The only other time I straddle is when I feel the table is at a "tipping point," when there has been a sudden increase in LAGgy play. I've found that a well-timed straddle can tip the game into crazyville, where even the better players become intensely stupid. Emotions can be powerful things and the rush of gamble-gamble can be intoxicating. If you can retain your head while those around you lose theirs, its like printing money.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]

PS: Straddling in a limit game is pure gamble, it has little strategic results except to help loosen the table for a hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you're playing 3-4 handed and if 4, the button folds lots.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

It helps if you're the squeekiest player at the table if you want to straddle.

It doesn't work if everybody is real short.

It's also a hell of a lot of fun to do - with or without a table full of drunks.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, they have the Miss straddle in Tunica.
You are allowed to straddle from any non-blind position and the pre-flop play begins to the left of the straddler.

So if I straddle on the button then preflop it's up to the SB right-away as to whether to call or not.


While the ideas in here are correct regarding why a good player might want to straddle it only answers part of the question.Why he should want to do this is to inflate the pot, have a loose image, etc.
Why most others are doing it is because they like to play a little bit crazy and gamble it up which includes such things as live-straddling and checking or betting in the dark, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bob this is only for NL games right? In a 4-8 game you can only stradle from one position (Left of the blinds). Am I correct here?

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
It helps if you're the squeekiest player at the table if you want to straddle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, you're better off 3 betting light in position with a playable but not great hand than 2 betting blind OOP.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, they have the Miss straddle in Tunica.
You are allowed to straddle from any non-blind position and the pre-flop play begins to the left of the straddler.

So if I straddle on the button then preflop it's up to the SB right-away as to whether to call or not.


While the ideas in here are correct regarding why a good player might want to straddle it only answers part of the question.Why he should want to do this is to inflate the pot, have a loose image, etc.
Why most others are doing it is because they like to play a little bit crazy and gamble it up which includes such things as live-straddling and checking or betting in the dark, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bob this is only for NL games right? In a 4-8 game you can only stradle from one position (Left of the blinds). Am I correct here?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the room/game. There is a legendary limit Badugi game in NC where if the Mississippi Straddle is on, all future streets are played at the size of the straddle. So if they are playing 200/400, and someone straddles to 1,000, then all future streets are 1,000 as well. Totally sick, its mathematically not a good strategy for that game yet people love to gambool!

PS: Bret is correct. If your image is an overly-tight player its better to loosen up in position with some light 3-bets than to straddle.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

caesar's In now has the Mississippi straddle. There, UTG gets first chance to straddle and it continues around to the button. Usually only one or two people are straddlers so it isn't a competition to see who gets the straddle.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
caesar's In now has the Mississippi straddle. There, UTG gets first chance to straddle and it continues around to the button. Usually only one or two people are straddlers so it isn't a competition to see who gets the straddle.

[/ QUOTE ]

They do it wrong there. I have seen button gets first option around to the SB (yes I have seen a SB post the MS straddle). I have also seen button gets first option, then UTG, the counterclockwise from the cut off.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alternatively there is the Mississippi straddle which is on the button. If your card room allows it and your a strong post-flop NL player than this can be so ideal that to pass on your straddle oportunity would be -EV if the conditions are right.


[/ QUOTE ]

What would be the right conditions ):?

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
caesar's In now has the Mississippi straddle. There, UTG gets first chance to straddle and it continues around to the button. Usually only one or two people are straddlers so it isn't a competition to see who gets the straddle.

[/ QUOTE ]

They do it wrong there. I have seen button gets first option around to the SB (yes I have seen a SB post the MS straddle). I have also seen button gets first option, then UTG, the counterclockwise from the cut off.

[/ QUOTE ]

RR is (as usual) correct. Button traditionally gets the first option. All the times I have played with a MS active it was either only on the button or the UTG had the next option working its way clockwise.

Re: I don\'t understand the point of straddling...
 

Quick story. About a year ago on the poker web-cast "Live at the Bike" we were playing 3-5 blind 300-500 spread buyin NL and the table was for the most part full of tightish (for LA [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) regulars or semi-regulars. We could see the show was going to be terrible with small pots so we agreed to straddle the whole night. One guy who wasn't a regular held out. I gave him no action that night and neither did anyone else.

~ Rick

PS Nate's comments on straddling are very good.