UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

Villain is on the stationy side, SaintNOO. I have 4200, he covers with 5200

Preflop at 30/60 I raise to 165 in EMP with T9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and I get two callers, one in LP (villain), one in blinds


Flop 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet 400 into around 500, Villain calls quickly, BB folds

Turn 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I decide to bet again for 900 into around 1300, he thinks maybe 3 seconds and calls again

River 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Pot is 3100 and I have approx 2750 behind.

Plan?

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

I can't automatically give him an 8 so I check/call to get more off of missed flush draws and a lot of 1 pair hands fold to a river bet.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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I can't automatically give him an 8 so I check/call to get more off of missed flush draws and a lot of 1 pair hands fold to a river bet.

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Agree, except I'm not convinced that I'm folding to all river leads, especially if it looks like some sort of blocking bet.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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except I'm not convinced that I'm folding to all river leads

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That's fair, he did call him a station.

Since he's a station betting probably nets a little bit more chips overall.

C/C has the added benefit of losing less to an 8 as well as getting something from a missed flush......they are probably pretty close.

Blockish bet is probably better since stations NEVER bluff raise here, but a tough player can bluff raise here.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

why aren't we just shoving so that J9 can call?

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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why aren't we just shoving so that J9 can call?

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I agree, he's a station shove for value. Given our read, I think we lose more value by checking and letting him check back his one pair hands than we gain from checking and letting him bluff his missed draw.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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why aren't we just shoving so that J9 can call?

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Because I'm terrible at river play

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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why aren't we just shoving so that J9 can call?

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I think even a station folds enough on that river to make it wrong. I could be off, but I agree with might get more from a busted FD by checking then we get from a one-pair hand.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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[ QUOTE ]
why aren't we just shoving so that J9 can call?

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I think even a station folds enough on that river to make it wrong. I could be off, but I agree with might get more from a busted FD by checking then we get from a one-pair hand.

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stations don't bluff 963T7 boards

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

I like a shove here also, a station will talk him into calling by telling himself "he can't have an 8 so why is he betting?"

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

check behind if he checks, call any bet i don't think he has an 8 here if he didn't have 78, maybe A8ss but that'd be odd

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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check behind if he checks, call any bet i don't think he has an 8 here if he didn't have 78, maybe A8ss but that'd be odd

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we act first

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

I think c/c is the best line here. I see him having a FD more than anything else. If he does have an 8, we lose the least amount with this line. Also, do we think he's going to blast a block bet with nothing? If you did go with a block, that wouldn't leave you with many chips behind, giving him almost no fold equity.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

fake block bet call shove ftw.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

check and call

clayton you can do very good things with his stack

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

Come on dude. You know this is a c/c.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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Come on dude. You know this is a c/c.

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im trying to gauge a response from people who are better at big mtts than myself as to the effectiveness of a thin valuebet here from enducing a bluff in this situation from a typical stationy opponent (who will at times play differently from a stationy cashplayer i think).

to insinuate that this decision is on the same level as "should i raise two limpers with QQ here?" is insulting, especially when three talented players (adanthar, fsoyars, and westmenlo) have advocated a shove.

I mean, lol? "Come on dude, you know this". pffft hahaha

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

Anyways, I shoved, he thought 1.5 seconds and folded. Still dunno what play is best though versus this kind of opponent: bet/call, shove, or checkcall.

My reasoning for shoving was that, in this spot, given I doubled barrelled, its hard for me to rep something thats going to 2 barrel and then fold. I think my 2 barrel can be read for strength, and as such on that river it's going to be hard for any decent villain to perceive that river spot as an ideal situation to bluff.

furthermore, like adanthar said, opponents will make some random excuse to make a call with Q9 here in spots, so it seemed viable for shoving.

im still not sure how i like valuebetting though, as I think I need a really good idea of how villain plays before I make a probe bet, because I wouldnt know what to do face a shove if villain was the least bit unknown.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

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Come on dude. You know this is a c/c.

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really? people will bet worse on the river, but it wont be as a bluff, and a lot of made hands will just take the free showdown, way too many that i think we have to bet. Also an 8 will obv always bet, so we always pay off better hands and for us to get paid off w/ c/c we basically have to hope he improved to 2 pair on the river and is balsy enought o bet it.

edit:

a lot of you guys are seeing the flush draw miss an automatically sayign "CHECKCALL! CATCH THE BLUFF". i think he way more likely has a one or two pair strength hand. and the spade missing can be used for you betting! villains will all be using the simple logic that was posted here "SPADES MISSED ITS A BLUFF!"

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

Yeah, I'd bet/call here esp. v. a station.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

i would say c/c, it seems like everytime i shove or bet for value in a spot like this the guy pulls an 8 out of his ass. so that has probably skewed my judgement.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

We also gain some value bc our hand is disguised here. Up until the river our line looks mostly like an overpair, maybe A9. All of these hands check this river. If we fire again on the river, villain convinces himself we have AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and makes a hero call with one pair.

Re: UB $215 river spot w/ two pair
 

Yeah.. that was a pretty stupid reply, and I was wrong anyway.

I like exit's reasoning for a shove. I think it's a little much to factor in the rare call from like J9/Q9, but like he said, he's often got like 97/67/Tx[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].