I learned about waco tonight..
 

..and I'm absolutely apalled.


Part I
http://video.google.com/url?docid=4298137966377572665

Part II
http://video.google.com/url?docid=-1755692679103175934


I'm not sure what to be more disgusted with. The actions of the faceless military might or the lies and coverup afterwards.


(I searched and found no OP about this subject)

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

If this is really the first time you learned about Waco I will eat my shoe.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this is really the first time you learned about Waco I will eat my shoe.

[/ QUOTE ]


Haha.


No, really. I didn't know any specifics. I only had a very vague idea and knew it was something gone wrong. That's it.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

Cliff notes? I also knew something wrong happened, but don't know any real details. How unbiased are these videos?

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

Links broken.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cliff notes? I also knew something wrong happened, but don't know any real details. How unbiased are these videos?

[/ QUOTE ]

Group has a compound in Waco, TX. Feds move in to serve warrents and raid (on pretty shaky grounds if I remember correctly) and a clusterf*ck insues. Chain of command is totally FUBAR and the soldiers there act inappropriatly (big suprise I know).

In the end, David Koresh (group's messiah/leader) and his group were doing plenty of illegal things, but the whole mess was a black eye for the ATF and Justice department because it was handled so poorly.

Cody

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this is really the first time you learned about Waco I will eat my shoe.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nielso lives in Europe, IIRC. Understandable that he wouldn't know about Waco.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Links broken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops.

These should work:


I
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...37966377572665

II
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...92679103175934

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this is really the first time you learned about Waco I will eat my shoe.

[/ QUOTE ]


Haha.


No, really. I didn't know any specifics. I only had a very vague idea and knew it was something gone wrong. That's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was one of Clinton's first "the buck stops down the hall events" He left Reno swingin in the wind on this one.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cliff notes? I also knew something wrong happened, but don't know any real details. How unbiased are these videos?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the South Park "meteor shower party" episode about covers it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

O/U before Nielso posts a "I just learned about the moon landing" thread?

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

Waco is sick.

Guy declares he is jesus.
Federal government via ATF thugs burns down his compound and kill a bunch of women and children.

You know the worst part? They killed him because he had a bunch of guns. I guess the second amendment doesn't apply to people who have strange religions. You know what's even crazier? 8 months before they executed their ridiculous warrant, he sent them a letter saying "come on in and take a look around, I hear you guys have some concerns, let me put them to rest".

They didn't follow up on that letter; but they did come in, 8 months later with guns ablazing, and killed a bunch of people for basically no reason.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
O/U before Nielso posts a "I just learned that the moon landing was a gov't conspiracy" thread?

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
O/U before Nielso posts a "I just learned that the moon landing was a gov't conspiracy" thread?

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is what he was already implying. I am surprised it hasn't been done yet.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
O/U before Nielso posts a "I just learned about the moon landing" thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm... wtf. I seriously doubt most Europeans are aware of the details of what went on with Waco. Hell, most AMERICANS aren't aware.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

Wow. Chuck Schumer. What an American hero.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
..and I'm absolutely apalled.


Part I
http://video.google.com/url?docid=4298137966377572665

Part II
http://video.google.com/url?docid=-1755692679103175934


I'm not sure what to be more disgusted with. The actions of the faceless military might or the lies and coverup afterwards.


(I searched and found no OP about this subject)

[/ QUOTE ]

well there was no military force present at Waco, or is Niels just classifying any govt. force as "military"? Besides, to say the ATF or FBI simply lit the joint on fire is retarded. Fire caused by CS or flares is far from intentional, if it could have been proved to be caused by that (which it wasn't). Wasn't the HRT about to assault the compound until it lit on fire anyways?


*disclaimer:I havent watched either videos, which is probably a good thing considering what Niels has linked in the past

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]

well there was no military force present at Waco, or is Niels just classifying any govt. force as "military"?

[/ QUOTE ]
Rented military tanks, FLIR imaging, day-and-night psychological warfare, and armed helecopters don't seem a bit militaristic to you?

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, to say the ATF or FBI simply lit the joint on fire is retarded. Fire caused by CS or flares is far from intentional, if it could have been proved to be caused by that (which it wasn't). Wasn't the HRT about to assault the compound until it lit on fire anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]
How about machinegun fire directed into the main exit from the central complex, exactly where the Branch Davidians had gathered (and bodies were found with gunshot wounds), which began shortly after the fire started (as recorded by the FLIR)? Just a big mix-up? Could have happened to anyone?

[ QUOTE ]
*disclaimer:I havent watched either videos, which is probably a good thing considering what Niels has linked in the past

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, what a nut, that Neils. Nothing to see here. God bless the ATF -- after all, SOMEONE has to protect us from alcohol, tobacco, and firearms!

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

well there was no military force present at Waco, or is Niels just classifying any govt. force as "military"?

[/ QUOTE ]
Rented military tanks, FLIR imaging, day-and-night psychological warfare, and armed helecopters don't seem a bit militaristic to you?

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, to say the ATF or FBI simply lit the joint on fire is retarded. Fire caused by CS or flares is far from intentional, if it could have been proved to be caused by that (which it wasn't). Wasn't the HRT about to assault the compound until it lit on fire anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]
How about machinegun fire directed into the main exit from the central complex, exactly where the Branch Davidians had gathered (and bodies were found with gunshot wounds), which began shortly after the fire started (as recorded by the FLIR)? Just a big mix-up? Could have happened to anyone?

[ QUOTE ]
*disclaimer:I havent watched either videos, which is probably a good thing considering what Niels has linked in the past

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, what a nut, that Neils. Nothing to see here. God bless the ATF -- after all, SOMEONE has to protect us from alcohol, tobacco, and firearms!

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely you can see you're being ridiculous right? The FBI having some (essentially) armored cars does not make this a military operation so let's not be so sensationalist. There is no military force present on the ground because of the Posse Comitatus Act, there are government forces on ground. Is this a disputable fact? The FBI using tanks is not equal to the military using tanks. FBI would use said tanks to approach the compound and if need be crash through a wall, not launch 120mm rounds into the compound. You need to get your facts right.

Are you saying that machine gun fire started the blaze? how may I ask? Machine guns may fire tracer rounds, but I highly doubt that's enough to start a blaze large enough to take down a compound.

Machine gun fire trained at the center of the compound? Is there any evidence for this? "The FBI has always contended that its agents never fired on April 19, even when fired upon -- that the Davidians shot themselves and each other. Autopsy reports showed that 19 Branch Davidians had gunshot wounds. But Justice Department officials now acknowledge that the ballistics work done after Waco was rudimentary at best." It seems that so far you have nothing but conspiracy theories to rely upon, and if that's the case I think we're done here.

Yes, there is nothing to see here, 1).both those links were down when I clicked on them and 2).You both seem to be huge conspiracy theorists who reply upon the testimony of crackpots to support your causes. Call me a sheep if you will, but you're both being ridiculous and have zero understanding of the tactics or technology used by either the military or the FBI.


If you care to read what Wiki says about the lovely David Koresh and Branch Davidians (who Niels and co. so vehemently defend): [ QUOTE ]
"Interviews with surviving Davidians state that David Koresh was intimately versed in the Bible and "knew it like he wrote it".[3] Koresh taught that the U.S. government was the enemy of the Davidians, and that they would have to defend themselves. In a video made by the Davidians and released during the siege,[3] Koresh stated that he had been told by God to procreate with the women in the groups to establish a "House of David", his "Special People". This involved married couples in the group dissolving their marriages and agreeing that only Koresh could have sexual relations with the wives. On the tape, Koresh is also shown with several minors who claimed to have had babies fathered by Koresh. In total, Koresh had fourteen young children who stayed with him in the compound.

A video clip of an interview between Koresh and an Australian television station notes that he was accused of impregnating the aged widow of the founder of Branch Davidianism. He sarcastically said that if the charges were true, if he had "made an 82 year-old woman pregnant... I do miracles, I'm God!"

On February 27, 1993 the Waco Tribune-Herald began what it called the “Sinful Messiah” series of articles.[2] It alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the compound and had taken underage brides, even raping one of them. Koresh was also said to advocate polygamy for himself, and declared himself married to several female residents of the small community. According to the paper, Koresh declared that he was entitled to at least 140 wives, that he was entitled to claim any of the females in the group as his, that he had fathered at least a dozen children by the harem and that some of these mothers became brides as young as twelve or thirteen years old.

Reports from Joyce Sparks, an investigator from the Texas agency responsible for protective services, stated that she had found significant evidence that the allegations were true in her visits to the Mount Carmel site over a period of months. However, she said that the investigation was difficult as she was not permitted to speak with the children alone, nor was she permitted to inspect all areas of the site. She noted that safety concerns over construction sites at Mount Carmel were either ignored or slowly corrected.[citation needed][3]. Carol Moore, author of the 1994 "The Massacre Of The Branch Davidians—A Study Of Government Violations Of Rights, Excessive Force And Cover Up",[4] published by The Committee For Waco Justice, writes:

(Rick) Ross told the Houston Chronicle that Koresh is "your stock cult leader. They're all the same. Meet one and you've met them all. They're deeply disturbed, have a borderline personality and lack any type of conscience...No one willingly enters into a relationship like this. So you're talking about deception and manipulation (by the leader), people being coached in ever so slight increments, pulled in deeper and deeper without knowing where it's going or seeing the total picture."

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the end, David Koresh (group's messiah/leader) and his group were doing plenty of illegal things

[/ QUOTE ]

name them please.

also to others it is not disputed that army special forces were there at waco, I guess that could be considered a military presence.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
1).both those links were down when I clicked on them and

[/ QUOTE ]


I posted working links:


I
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...37966377572665

II
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...92679103175934



It's up to you to open your ears to the other side of the story and evaluate what you hear.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
O/U before Nielso posts a "I just learned about the moon landing" thread?

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't see how that's related to this. Can you speak honestly and directly what you mean?

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the end, David Koresh (group's messiah/leader) and his group were doing plenty of illegal things

[/ QUOTE ]

name them please.

also to others it is not disputed that army special forces were there at waco, I guess that could be considered a military presence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even give a crap if they WERE doing illegal things, with all the laws in this country it is almost impossible to not do illegal things. I mean you really have to go out of your way to study lots of rules and regulations, as well as make a concerted effort in order to avoid doing illegal things. What a wonderful country.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you care to read what Wiki says about the lovely David Koresh and Branch Davidians...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's some great justification for gassing, shooting, and burning down men, women, and children -- all to serve a [censored] little arms warrant that could easily have been taken care of without resorting to violence.

And that's what's so great about ATF -- the kind of agency that, when it's all said and done and it's all been burned to the ground (however it was done and whoever set the fire), hoists their flag up over the charred remains. Just classy.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even give a crap if they WERE doing illegal things, with all the laws in this country it is almost impossible to not do illegal things. I mean you really have to go out of your way to study lots of rules and regulations, as well as make a concerted effort in order to avoid doing illegal things. What a wonderful country.

[/ QUOTE ]

true of course i'm with you 100%, but my point is similiar to the randy weaver story, most people I would assume would believe that he is in jail for his "crimes" when in fact he is a free man who recieved an out of court settlement (millions) for the death of his family.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you let such statements go by without objection (they were engaged in various illegal activities), then people think they are true and people think it is the general consensus that it's true. To the best of my knowledge the waco people were not engaged in any illegal activities, before the actual raid occurred.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cliff notes? I also knew something wrong happened, but don't know any real details. How unbiased are these videos?

[/ QUOTE ]


You can judge for yourself, no?

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

Metric,

Are you a voluntaryist?

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Metric,

Are you a voluntaryist?

[/ QUOTE ]
I suppose so. With regard to government, I guess you could call me an "asymptotic ACist," if you take my meaning.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even give a crap if they WERE doing illegal things

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, nothing at all wrong with taking sexual liberties with a twelve-year-old. The nerve of those busybodies at CPS. . . .

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Metric,

Are you a voluntaryist?

[/ QUOTE ]
I suppose so. With regard to government, I guess you could call me an "asymptotic ACist," if you take my meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you mean.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't even give a crap if they WERE doing illegal things

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, nothing at all wrong with taking sexual liberties with a twelve-year-old. The nerve of those busybodies at CPS. . . .

[/ QUOTE ]


So the answer is to murder the children!?@#!?@

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the answer is to murder the children!?@#!?@

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, that was not the outcome we were looking for.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the answer is to murder the children!?@#!?@

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, that was not the outcome we were looking for.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I saw.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

Did you skip the part where the Davidians set the fires themselves that ultimately led to their deaths?

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, nothing at all wrong with taking sexual liberties with a twelve-year-old. The nerve of those busybodies at CPS. . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

unfounded allegations as far as I am aware.

as far as cps, take a look at this website

http://www.massoutrage.com/

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
as far as cps, take a look at this website

http://www.massoutrage.com/

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, how cute, a Bircher. I can't imagine why a family lawyer who is a member of the John Birch Society would have an axe to grind about DSS. . . .

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, how cute, a Bircher. I can't imagine why a family lawyer who is a member of the John Birch Society would have an axe to grind about DSS

[/ QUOTE ]

ok heres my impression of how you talk:

/oh, someone who hates the john birch society, no wonder he enjoys killing children and their families./

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

The CPS had nothing to do with this... it was the ATF... and the Branch Dividians were no threat to anyone. They were weird and so they were slaughtered.

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you skip the part where the Davidians set the fires themselves that ultimately led to their deaths?

[/ QUOTE ]
Source?

Re: I learned about waco tonight..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you skip the part where the Davidians set the fires themselves that ultimately led to their deaths?

[/ QUOTE ]


As a joke?