Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

3/6 nl on ftp (6 handed)

Effective stacks $800

Only 2 orbits in. I was dealt AA and took a nice pot by betting flop/turn and guy folding. Besides that I have folded every hand. BB seems typical multi tabler TAG.

Folds to me in CO and I make it $20 with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Both blinds call.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Checked to me and I bet $50. SB folds. BB calls.

Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

BB checks. I...

Confused in whether I valued the draw more or the pot....

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

if i double barrel I plan firing a third barrel.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

Betting suggests you have the A, and you make a disguised hand if you hit it. A Q or J could also be outs(if he's not on 79 or J9). I bet it.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

If I get c/r'd here though i can't call....

That turn card didn't change matters so if he liked his hand on the flop then he probably still does by the turn, no?

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

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If I get c/r'd here though i can't call....

That turn card didn't change matters so if he liked his hand on the flop then he probably still does by the turn, no?

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thats why you would have to plan on triple barreling, making him fold an ace

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

do you bet A4 here? what about AK? are you more likely to check QJ or 97?

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

Yeah I would check this...what is he going to call pf and the flop with that he will fold now? Would he call with 97 pf? Thats the only hand he would just call the flop and turn with, otherwise he prolly has a med Ace. If you check and hit, he will prolly pay you off since your check showed such weakness...especially if the K or 9 makes him two pair. If you check and miss let it go. That said, if you bet and he just calls, you have to bet an airball river.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

This is the line I was hoping someone would see and present arguments for.

For me 97 = bet
For me AK = bet
For me A4 = probably check
For me QJ = ???

Interested in what is more valuable. The pot right there and the % of time we win it with a bet, or the possibility of stacking him if we hit and losing the minimum when we miss.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the line I was hoping someone would see and present arguments for.

For me 97 = bet
For me AK = bet
For me A4 = probably check
For me QJ = ???

Interested in what is more valuable. The pot right there and the % of time we win it with a bet, or the possibility of stacking him if we hit and losing the minimum when we miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, question. why are you checking A4? - by that same token, if 97 is a bet, why is QJ not a bet? I would say both have little showdown value, both are disguised, and neither is an insanely huge draw (unless you had diamonds too)

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

A4 is tricky. You are probably correct that if I can't get value out of it then it has little to no showdown value either.

97 is weaker then QJ in respect to QJ a) making a higher straight and b) both cards being higher then middle pair for those times that he floats with Tx,ect...

AK should be bet for pure value.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

id check
theres 0 chance hes folding an A unless you commit your whole stack on the river, in which case there is a chance he is folding an A.
also, he could easily have much better than an A.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

Baluga,

You dont think a multitablin TAG can float this flop with numerous hands? You seem convinced he has an Ace and not very that I can get him to fold it.

What does my line look like from BB's perpective?

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

KT-JT seems to be about the only thing he could have here that you could fold out with a double barrel.
its close, but i think hes got the ace here much more then he doesnt.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

either fire no barrells or fire another couple

I think the latter option is far stronger though, there's a ton of hands thats drawing or simply isn't strong enough to stack off with

put it this way, if we have A9 in this spot it's a pretty hard call to make on the turn, and an even harder call to make on the river

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

your draw isnt nearly strong enough to value over your FE. so, bombs away!

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

I like a check here. Considering BB called (last to act), his range is significantly greater than SB (which makes it more difficult unfortunately).

He has any pocket pair and AJ/AT/KQ...ish. It looks to me like a trap more often than a float with nothing/pair of 10s.

If you hit your draw, you may get a lot of value out of a set that was going to checkraise you on the turn. If he also checks the river, I'm tempted to fire again (assuming he's not about to triple-check a set or ace). But I don't bet the turn.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

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your draw isnt nearly strong enough to value over your FE. so, bombs away!



[/ QUOTE ]
did you notice that we are double gutter

i mean i'll put it this way
when you c/c this flop what do you have
then take that
and ask yourself how often you really fold it on the turn

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

3 barrels!

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

If the BB has shown any tendency to call a flop bet OOP and then fold to a turn bet, then fire away... else check. A lot of players like to call a flop bet after hitting any piece just to see if you fire a 2nd barrel, at which time they fold. No way you should ever bet the river if you check the turn and dont hit your draw on the river.

Also, I like checking behind if you had A4 here. For one thing, you may induce a bluff on the river (if he was either floating OOP or drawing) which you can call. Secondly, if BB checks the river then you can fire and it looks like some crappy bluff which he will call with any pair. I do this routinely with weak make hands and get paid off.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

Isn't betting the turn, knowing that he'll call a good amount of the time, to set up a river bluff bad?

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

Either fire no barrels or fire two.

I check but I'm a pussy that doesn't two barrel enough.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

For me:
A4 check
AK mostly bet
QJ/79 are equal here I think your TI dependent; if it is good then bet if shot then check behind; for OP a bet and betting river some but not all of the time if missed.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

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Either fire no barrels or fire two.

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I disagree whole heartedly.

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I check but I'm a pussy that doesn't two barrel enough.

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Sorry to hear that. Maybe you should work on that instead of continuing to give advice that advocates your own leaks.

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

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Isn't betting the turn, knowing that he'll call a good amount of the time, to set up a river bluff bad?

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This seems to be a big part of this dilema.

It comes to what we feel our FE% is compared to how much we will make if/when we hit on river + the times we make him fold his hand on a bluff turn - the times we get called on our 2/3 barrels (when we miss) + the times we get c/r'd on the turn and fold right there.

Confusing I know, but I feel that is ultimately the equation we are dealing with.

So, is the pot right now worth more and our attempt to go after it or is looking to hit our draw and extract worth more? The title was given because I think these are our two options since we can't justify checking the turn only to bet the river.....can we?

Re: Can I rep anything legit if river airballs?
 

3 barrel or check are the only options

Check is the best since you have many outs and will get value from hands at the river