pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

I have been playing Plo for a long time on an intermediate level but I would really like to take it a step further by analyzing my play by using pokertracker and post/discuss plo hands in this forum.

So first of all I would like to ask:

1.How do you use pokertracker to analyze your game specifically for Plo ?

2.What do you think are the most typical mistakes you see players make in Plo ?

Thanks a lot

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

I'll chip in some off the top of my head, and for 6-max

First. If you haven't already, set up categories on PTO. If you haven't, it's on the main screen where the hands are listed.

You need the following categories:

Aces; Kings; Queens & Jacks; Double Big Pairs; High Wraps; High One Gappers; Mid Double Pairs; Mid Wraps; Mid One Gappers

PM me if you need more help on setting the categories up. There are a bunch more, including categories for the lower cards, two gappers, and danglers - but the above hands are the hands you'll be the most excited about preflop. Each of these categories should be positive after a significant sample size, so if they are not, you know you have a leak somewhere in your game, or that your categories are messed up. (For example, when you set up the Aces cateogory, you should include AA but exclude AAA...)

Second, compare your preflop raise percentage to your call preflop raise %. You should be raising more hands preflop than you are calling.

Position stats - As you get close to the button, you should have a higher VPIP and a higher pfr%. Track this on all opponents you have significant amounts of hands with. You'll quickly surmise who understands position, and this knowledge is money.

Different styles give different results, but your W$@SD needs to be in the range of 50% to 54%, any lower and you are going to showdown too often, any higher, you are folding too much. Lower winning percentages also reflect errors in earlier streets, because it means your opponents are being allowed to catch up with you--i.e., you are giving too many free cards. Sample size needs to be large, because you can play perfect poker for several thousand hands and have a 40% or 70% W$@SD%.

River stats - the most important street is the river:

1) generally the bets are the largest; and
2) your equity is usually 100% or 0% (but sometimes it will be 50% and sometimes 33%); so this is where your mistakes are the largest in magnatude

First stat: fold to river bet. Your's should be the range of 55-65%. Any lower, you're going to showdown too often, any higher, you are either getting pushed off the best hand too often and/or going too far with sub-par hands.

So a player that has a fold to river bet % of 80% probably thinks to himself "These fish always suck out on me" The truth is he plays too many weak hands that he should fold on the flop.

Leaving the office, I will write more later, please dear forum, tell me if I am idiot here as well, because there is a fairly good chance that I am. (At least my mother thinks so.)

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

wow. this is great advice!! thx nit!

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Sort hands by biggest played that went to showdown.

Then go street by street and analyze how well you got your money in on each street by using the pot odds button that takes you right to twodimes.net.

Then think on the mistakes that you are making. Stop making those mistakes.

Think on the mistakes that your opponents are making.
Exploit those mistakes.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

The biggest tool I use to evaluate an opponent on the river is his river AF. The AF is computed along the lines of ((bets + raises)/calls). So high river aggression means your opponent bets alot when he senses weakness and folds when people show strength. Now your at the river against a guy with a river AF, of let's say 5, which you will see a lot.

You have a hand you are willing to go to showdown with, and you out of position. Should you bet for value? Against this player, your standard line should be check call. Since he folds a lot, he will usually fold most hands you beat. Also, he will sometimes raise you as a bluff. Check calling takes this play out of his bag.

On the other hand, if you have a whiffed draw, you should consider leading out often, as his aggression factor indicates he folds a lot as well.

Mix it up here and there though, as a guy with a high river AF is ripe territory for the occasional check raise bluff!

The other thing I look for is a guy whose river aggression is way higher than all his other streets. These players often are chasers for bad odds that rely on river bluffs to keep them out of trouble. So if the river appears to brick, check call. Watch the draws, because they will chase str8's on a FD board, which disguises their draw.

<u>%WtSD v. W$@SD%</u>

Since its Omaha, you will see this a lot more than you will in holdem, and this is people who go to showdown more often than they win. When you see this after a fair amount of hands, and you don't need tons of hands, you have found yourself a fish.

Don't bluff him, unless you have another read, but try to isolate him as early in the hand as you can. Then value bet away, but don't pay off his draws that get there.

It also works the opposite. A low went to showdown percentage versus a high won at showdown %, means you have found yourself a weak tighty. You need to make these guys sweat, as they are begging for an excuse to fold. They will stack you here and there, but I promise you will steal enough small pots in the longrun that if you can successfully isolate this guy, you are going to come out ahead.

Since you know what your looking for with these two numbers, pay attention to yours as well. I promise there are others who are.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

*favorite topic! (toggle)* *click*

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

@ Nit- keep it coming, it's exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you so much

Harmonix

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

I did this when I was a noob, so I'll just put it out there.

There are supposedly "ideal" stats for different styles of play. So when I started, I tried to get these ideal stats going on all my tables. In hold'em, for instance, I found myself raising more hands than I liked at tables so my pfr% would be &gt;= 67% of my VPIP. This is FUBAR. Just play each situation as best you can at the time, and if you are playing right, then your stats should converge, after a LONG period of time, with those "ideal" stats. It's okay to have a table were you have folded 85% of the rivers if that's what the game called for at the time.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

@ Nit

If you could do a complete list of categories that you use in your PT it would be fantastic, maybe you could send them and I could then import them, if that is possible ? if it's no problem of course ?

Thanks again

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Second, compare your preflop raise percentage to your call preflop raise %. You should be raising more hands preflop than you are calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great inforamtion Nit! However, Im not sure I agree with the above statement. Awesome post though.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Very nice posts on using PT stats in PLO. Maybe the best i've seen.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

how do i exclude my plo8 hands from my plo hi hands??? im seeing all these wack stats bc i play so much plo8.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how do i exclude my plo8 hands from my plo hi hands??? im seeing all these wack stats bc i play so much plo8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go to the last tab where you select the date you are reviewing. You can filter out sites and games, so you will only have the stakes you want.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second, compare your preflop raise percentage to your call preflop raise %. You should be raising more hands preflop than you are calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great inforamtion Nit! However, Im not sure I agree with the above statement. Awesome post though.

[/ QUOTE ]

DJM it's stndard gap theory, you need a stronger hand to call a raise than you need to raise with yourself.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
@ Nit

If you could do a complete list of categories that you use in your PT it would be fantastic, maybe you could send them and I could then import them, if that is possible ? if it's no problem of course ?

Thanks again

[/ QUOTE ]

I erased all my old categories because I had a lot of O8 categories in there. Right now I only have the ones listed in my first post, maybe a few more, put I will post them here this weekend. You can copy what I paste, save it as .txt, and import it into PTO.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Thanks for posting this Harmonix. I've been wondering about this as well. Also, thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Very nice I'll look forward to that

Thanks

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Categories for PLO

The stuff below is a work in progress, everytime I fool around, I fix something. Also, there is double counting. Like, right now the category for Kings includes High Pair Wraps with KK, I haven't decided if I am going to fix that or not...

You should be able to copy, save as a .txt file and then import on PTO. You're all welcome, feel free to point out stuff I am missing so I can fix for myself as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Starting Hand Categories PTO Begin
1 Aces AA AAA
1 Kings KK AA,KKK
1 Queens or Jacks QQ,JJ AA,KK,QQQ,JJJ
1 Double Big Pairs AAKK,KKQQ,QQJJ,JJTT,AAQQ,AAJJ,AATT,KKJJ,KKTT,QQTT
1 High Wraps AKQJ,KQJT,QJT9,JT89
1 High Pair Wraps AAKQ,AKKQ,KKQJ,KQQJ,AKQQ,QQJT,QJJT,KQJJ,JJT9
1 High Gappers AQJT,AKJT,AKQT,KQT9,KQJ9,QJ98
1 Mid Wraps JT98,T987,9876,8765
1 Mid Gappers J987,JT87,T876,7976
1 Connected High Pair Danglers AAK,AKK,KKQ,KQQ,QQJ,QJJ,JJT JJT7,JJTT,JJJ,KQQ9,JJJ,KKQ9,QQJ8,QQQ,AAA,KKK,AQJJ, AQQJ,AKKT,AAKJ,QQJ9,QQTT,QJJ8,AJJT,QJJ9,JJT8,KJJT, KQQT,QQJJ,KQJJ,AKQQ,AAKT,AKKJ,KKQQ,KKQT,AAKK,AAKQ, AKKQ,KKQJ,KQQJ,QQJT,QJJT,JJT9
1 High Wrap Danglers AKQ,KQJ,QJT,JT9 JT96,QJT7,JT97,JT98,KJT9,AJT9,AQJT,AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT, 99,AKQJ,AKQT,AKQ9,KQJT,KQJ9,KQJ8,QJT9,QJT8
1 High Double Gappers AJT9,AKT9,KQ89,KT98,AQT9,KJ98
Starting Hand Categories PTO End


[/ QUOTE ]

After pasting this into text, delete the spaces between category name, included cards, excluded cars and then separate with a tab. I.e., for aces the text file needs to be:

[1][Tab][Aces][Tab][AA][Tab][AAA][Enter]

Also be sure to keep everything on one line

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

you have been such a big help, now I just have to comprehend all the information.

Thanks again

Harmonix

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Thanks a lot Nitilism! Good stuff.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

How many hands do you think I should have logged before being able to use these guidelines ?

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

From your starting hand categories I see suited ace+wrap hands missing completely, like Ah7s6h5s for example.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Do you know how to include suits in the categories? I've never been able to figure that out.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

how do you get your stats to show up on the screen for all of your logged hands. i can get my stats for that table to come up (maybe up to 100 hands), but i cant get my numbers on my several thousand hands to show.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

options - preferences - filters
uncheck all boxes and it should show all of the hands

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

all boxes have been unchecked.....

thats what i dont understand. i uncheck show stats from current limit or session and yet it still does.

maybe i should try reverse psychology.




EDIT - does anyone use the pull down menu on top of what was mentioned at the beginning of this post? If so, what stats?

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Oh, your stats. I'm not sure if you can do that. Open up poker tracker and look at them any time you want. Seeing your stats for each table is much better info imo. Table image and whatnot.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

i would like to have both available

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
First stat: fold to river bet. Your's should be the range of 55-65%. Any lower, you're going to showdown too often, any higher, you are either getting pushed off the best hand too often and/or going too far with sub-par hands.

So a player that has a fold to river bet % of 80% probably thinks to himself "These fish always suck out on me" The truth is he plays too many weak hands that he should fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i just added this to my HUD and it seems like everyones is super high. i have a few thousand hands on john juanda and some other 200/400 players who also have a high % like this.

JJ is sporting 80% fold river ??WTF???

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

ColdDecker - I didn't know you could get suits into the categories. Can you? Thanks.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First stat: fold to river bet. Your's should be the range of 55-65%. Any lower, you're going to showdown too often, any higher, you are either getting pushed off the best hand too often and/or going too far with sub-par hands.

So a player that has a fold to river bet % of 80% probably thinks to himself "These fish always suck out on me" The truth is he plays too many weak hands that he should fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i just added this to my HUD and it seems like everyones is super high. i have a few thousand hands on john juanda and some other 200/400 players who also have a high % like this.

JJ is sporting 80% fold river ??WTF???

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not qualified to comment on the 200/400 games...

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

regardless of the high stakes, this seems very excessive. all of their other stats seem optimal (ie aggression freq, wts, and w$@s)

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ColdDecker - I didn't know you could get suits into the categories. Can you? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need the Irish ver. of Pokertracker. For example, RoundTower has done extensive analysis with on PT and has found that diamonds are a prefered suit.

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

Very nice post. Thank you Nitilism.

I was wondering about what stats you have on your PAHud overlay? I currently use VPIP, PFR%, AF, Hand# and CB%. I think they are a must, but I believe I should include a couple more. What about WtSD% and W%@SD? Any others you feel is a 'must'?

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

I like.

Question about PT categories. Is it ok to include KJT9, QJT8, QT98 in the High One Gappers category? I see that Nitilism didn't. Do you only want to include hands where the gap is between the last two or the middle two cards?

Re: pokertracker analysis and typical Plo mistakes ?
 

[ QUOTE ]

So a player that has a fold to river bet % of 80% probably thinks to himself "These fish always suck out on me" The truth is he plays too many weak hands that he should fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh shoot, thats me. ( 72% during 11k hands) Although I think it's more like I get bluffed too much. Everyime a scare card drops on the river and opp. fires a PSB I think I'm beat.. and fold...
I don't how to change that...