John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

I saw this documentary the other day at the cinema and can definitely recommend it. Its far from the sensationalism and factual innacuracies of Moore films: but I did have some criticisms of it. For example, in one scene they interview 2 parents or a baby who have been made homeless asking "do you think the Wests perception of your country as being economically prosperous is correct?" (LOL) Another scene the song "Something Inside so Strong" is played over archive footage of a mass protest/revolution in Venezuela which is just stupid. And lastly, Pilger's (naive?) admiration of Hugo Chavez is suspect -hailing him as the ultimate hero without any criticism. It also makes the point that criticisms of Chavez as censoring the media are incorrect; which is ironic seeing as he recently banned a load of media companies.

All in all- its informative and reasonably captivating. Despite its bias it doesnt pretend to be otherwise and if 90% of the films claims are 100% true, it wouldn't suprise me.


IMDB [ QUOTE ]
Award winning journalist John Pilger examines the role of Washington in America's manipulation of Latin American politics during the last 50 years leading up to the struggle by ordinary people to free themselves from poverty and racism. Since the mid 19th Century Latin America has been the 'backyard' of the US, a collection of mostly vassal states whose compliant and often brutal regimes have reinforced the 'invisibility' of their majority peoples. The film reveals similar CIA policies to be continuing in Iraq, Iran and Lebanon. The rise of Venezuela's Hugo Chavez despite ongoing Washington backed efforts to unseat him in spite of his overwhelming mass popularity, is democratic in a way that we have forgotten or abandoned in the west. True Democracy being a solid 80% voter turnout in support of Chavez in over 6 elections.

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Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

Other than his love of coffee and eloquent speachmaking. Chavez has zero redeeming qualities. He is destroying his country piece by piece though fear mongering and bully tactics. The real deal that is going on there is so far beyond 1984 screwed up its hard to even describe. I look forward to the revolt when he pulls the "president for life" card that hes about to.

In short he makes Bush or even Castro look like sensible rational people

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

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Other than his love of coffee and eloquent speachmaking. Chavez has zero redeeming qualities. He is destroying his country piece by piece though fear mongering and bully tactics. The real deal that is going on there is so far beyond 1984 screwed up its hard to even describe. I look forward to the revolt when he pulls the "president for life" card that hes about to.

In short he makes Bush or even Castro look like sensible rational people

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The film presented your view by interviewing business men and showing absurd news reporters. Chavez, like him or not, is attempting to bring socialism to a country that has prior ignored the poor and concentrated itself upon the interest of the rich and Washington.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

Socialism is bad for the poor.

In any event, Chavez is a one trick pony. God help the guy if there is ever a technology breakthrough and the price of oil goes down.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

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Socialism is bad for the poor.

In any event, Chavez is a one trick pony. God help the guy if there is ever a technology breakthrough and the price of oil goes down.

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Socialism is not bad for the poor. In Venezuala the poor are in a better position than they were under US backed control- though the l/t effects may prove otherwise. Im no socialist but as an ideology it favours the poor.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

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Socialism is not bad for the poor. In Venezuala the poor are in a better position than they were under US backed control- though the l/t effects may prove otherwise. Im no socialist but as an ideology it favours the poor.

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I think this is true only in the short run. For sure, immediately following the introduction of socialism the poor who have money taken from the rich and given to them are better off. In the long run, a fully blown centrally planned socialist economy is worse for everybody.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

To add on that, socialism is a capital destroyer. Under socialism you see a lot of current consumption at the expense of capital building and investment.

Blowing all your credit cards on a huge party seems great in the short term, eventually the bills come due.

And, as I noted, the whole system of Chavez's is basically being held up by high oil prices. All of his social programs would collapse without the constant infusion of money from oil sales.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Socialism is bad for the poor.

In any event, Chavez is a one trick pony. God help the guy if there is ever a technology breakthrough and the price of oil goes down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Socialism is not bad for the poor. In Venezuala the poor are in a better position than they were under US backed control- though the l/t effects may prove otherwise. Im no socialist but as an ideology it favours the poor.

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tell that to the poor in

CUBA
CHINA
OLD USSR
etc etc

And everywhere else this BS idea has been tried. Socialism creates the ultimate breading ground for graft and corruption. The IDEA may be to help the poor but they get buttsecksed by the ruling elite at every turn. Show me one socialist country present or past where the poor don't get a more raw deal than any comparable "free market" country

Any time you create a system with hyper rigid transaction rules the only people who win are those that break the rules.

for a micro lesson on this see Enron and the California "deregulation" fiasco.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Socialism is bad for the poor.

In any event, Chavez is a one trick pony. God help the guy if there is ever a technology breakthrough and the price of oil goes down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Socialism is not bad for the poor. In Venezuala the poor are in a better position than they were under US backed control- though the l/t effects may prove otherwise. Im no socialist but as an ideology it favours the poor.

[/ QUOTE ]


tell that to the poor in

CUBA
CHINA
OLD USSR
etc etc

And everywhere else this BS idea has been tried. Socialism creates the ultimate breading ground for graft and corruption. The IDEA may be to help the poor but they get buttsecksed by the ruling elite at every turn. Show me one socialist country present or past where the poor don't get a more raw deal than any comparable "free market" country

Any time you create a system with hyper rigid transaction rules the only people who win are those that break the rules.

for a micro lesson on this see Enron and the California "deregulation" fiasco.

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Name one country with a free market that cares about the poor.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Socialism is bad for the poor.

In any event, Chavez is a one trick pony. God help the guy if there is ever a technology breakthrough and the price of oil goes down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Socialism is not bad for the poor. In Venezuala the poor are in a better position than they were under US backed control- though the l/t effects may prove otherwise. Im no socialist but as an ideology it favours the poor.

[/ QUOTE ]


tell that to the poor in

CUBA
CHINA
OLD USSR
etc etc

And everywhere else this BS idea has been tried. Socialism creates the ultimate breading ground for graft and corruption. The IDEA may be to help the poor but they get buttsecksed by the ruling elite at every turn. Show me one socialist country present or past where the poor don't get a more raw deal than any comparable "free market" country

Any time you create a system with hyper rigid transaction rules the only people who win are those that break the rules.

for a micro lesson on this see Enron and the California "deregulation" fiasco.

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Name one country with a free market that cares about the poor.

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Poverty rates in the US decreased pretty consistently during periods up until the 1950s and the beginning of the great society programs. The exceptions to this trend were during high government interference (Great depression, Wars), the same can be said of England in the pre industrial revolution years through the 1890s (if memory serves correctly).

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

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Name one country with a free market that cares about the poor.

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Its not about caring its about opportunity. In your country and mine charity and opportunity abound.

When the market is in charge of giving you get this.

http://www.ncpa.org/pd/gif/pd062600a.gif


When the state is in charge of the giving you get this.


http://www1.fao.org/media_thumbs/Pho..._384/15656.jpg

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

Guys, there are already plenty of threads discussing Venezuela specifically. A lot of this discussion has been hashed through before, so you might find the content in them interesting and substantive (though I'm probably biased since I posted in them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

Anyway, here are links to my posts in those threads.

Re: Thoughts and questions concerning Venezuela

Re: chavez protests in venezuela

Re: Should the US support Venezuelan Rebels?

From this thread, just to get the ball rolling:
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This op-ed piece by Mark Weisbrot states:

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A few economic statistics go a long way in explaining why the Venezuelan government is doing so well...


...for the 28 years that preceded the current government (1970-1998), Venezuela suffered one of the worst economic declines in Latin America and the world: per capita income fell by 35 percent. This is a worse decline than even sub-Saharan Africa suffered during this period, and shows how completely dysfunctional the economic policies of the old system had become.
...
Although Chavez talks about building "21st century socialism," the Venezuelan government's economic policies are gradualist reform, more akin to a European-style social democracy. The private sector is actually a larger share of the Venezuelan economy today than it was before Chavez took office.
...
The official poverty rate has fallen to 38.5 percent from its most recent peak of 54 percent after the opposition oil strike. But this measures only cash income; if the food subsidies and health care were taken into account, it would be well under 30 percent.

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(As usual, I think it would probably be more constructive to discuss Venezuela specifically and not "socialism" generally.)

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

What is amazing is how many will assume that Chavez is bad for Venezuala as though it is a given without presenting any data what so ever.

Im not sure either way and think probably he will be bad in the long run , but I cant help noticing that the post about Chavez being bad are always unsubstantiated sstatements and not arguments.

People lets see the data.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

I have a graduate student friend who is from Venezuela. When he gets his Ph.D. in theoretical physics, he'll have to figure out something besides going back to Venezuela. Apparently, he and the rest of his family voted against Chavez (who keeps track of such things), and are now on his personal "no jobs for you" [censored] list.

Re: John Pilger- War on Democracy (Latin America) Documentary
 

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...I cant help noticing that the post about Chavez being bad are always unsubstantiated statements and not arguments.

People lets see the data.

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I have a graduate student friend who is from Venezuela. When he gets his Ph.D. in theoretical physics, he'll have to figure out something besides going back to Venezuela. Apparently, he and the rest of his family voted against Chavez (who keeps track of such things), and are now on his personal "no jobs for you" [censored] list.

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Better that they provide no data than false data.

According to the European Union Election Observation Mission for Presidential Elections Venezuela 2006:

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The high turnout, peaceful nature, and general acceptance of results of the Presidential Elections in Venezuela open the way forward to substantial improvements in the quality and public confidence in electoral processes..

...The electronic voting system established in Venezuela is efficient, secure, and auditable, and the competence of its technical experts is consistent with its advanced
technological level.

...The use of fingerprint readers (captahuellas) neither violates the secrecy of the vote, nor is a source of fraud.

On the other hand, they are not directly relevant in the exercise of the right to vote; furthermore, they are not nor trusted by a significant part of the electorate, and in certain cases, they led to unnecessary queuing during Election Day.

...EU EOM observers evaluated the quality of the electoral process positively in 85% of the polling stations visited on Election Day. Similarly, the appraisal of polling station officials, regarding their knowledge of electoral procedures, was positive in 76% of cases, which leaves a margin for improvement in the management of the electoral process. No major problems were detected regarding the audit of closing, the random selection of polling stations, and the subsequent counting of voting receipts. The correct number of ballot boxes was audited in all visited polling stations.

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I see no evidence to indicate that the Venezuelan government "keeps track of" those who voted against Chavez.

Interestingly, in the United States our own elections do not provide "efficient, secure, and auditable" electronic voting.