Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

Self-righteousness.

The beauty of classical liberalism is its simplicity. Belief in it does not require creative and self glorifying solution.

People who believe in the free market will point to lack of understanding as the reason many oppose it. I agree, but I think it's more that people *don't want to* believe it even if they're capable of it. For self-righteous reasons. They want to be the guy with the solution. People want to feel like their ideas matter. And when you hold the "position" that the market takes care of itself, you effectively eliminate your opportunity to be the hero who figured everything out.

And I'm not really talking about the politicians and the hack journalists. They'll mislead you but they don't necessarily believe what they're saying. Joe Shmoe believes what he says.

People care about government. People talk about government. Joe Shmoe wants to feel like his ideas about something as important as government are superior. He graduated with a fancy political science degree, HE HAS SOLUTIONS. HE'S AN IMPORTANT MEMBER OF SOCIETY WITH IMPORTANT IDEAS. He didn't pay $130K to come to realize that he should accept the fact that he can't manipulate the market. So he'll never accept it until it's smacking him in the face.

If there's any way to believe it isn't true, he will find ways to believe it isn't true.

The market to me is like gravity. You can't touch it. Socialists talk about "capitalism" like some dude invented it in a lab. Capitalism is just a natural force of efficiency. You can choose to restrict it if you're a pussy or an [censored], but don't lie to me about blatant truths and expect me to have a reasonable discussion with you.

Fortunately, gravity is hard to reject. The ones who did all fell over the cliff. But if people could plausibly reject it in lieu of their own ideas, they would. And they'd spend their time, effort, and money finding new and creative ways to apply force on air born objects at roughly -9.8 meters per second. The fact that they could just do nothing and get an equal or slightly better result would not fly well with people who think they are more important than the natural order of our existence.


I mean, I'm not "for capitalism" in the sense that I care much about money or associate much with people in suits. But how can you deny the blatantly obvious? Is your desire to personally solve the world's problems *that* important to you?

Trust gravity. If you jump, you will come down. Get over yourself. You're not that important. You can't fly.

I think the desire to affect our world is probably a natural human yearning though. I wish people would redirect this desire to a personal level, and trust that the impact will be made. Just work hard if you want to affect the world. Open a pizza shop and sell people delicious pizza.

Oh wait. That takes effort. But whining about which laws are good and bad and who is right and wrong is easy, and makes us sound smart. And it proves to everyone how good our ideas are, which is more noble than cooking a tasty pizza. I forgot.


Thoughts?

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

yeah, that's about it

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

It doesn't help that too many in the "free market" camp are unwilling to admit that there are some areas where a totally free market is not optimal.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

"It doesn't help that too many in the "free market" camp are unwilling to admit that there are some areas where a totally free market is not optimal. "

Easy to assert, impossible to prove?

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

This is one of the longest and (ironically) most self-righteous ad hominem arguments I've seen posted here.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the longest and (ironically) most self-righteous ad hominem arguments I've seen posted here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? The post takes the assumption that the foundation and extensions of libertarianism are "right" or whatever you want to call it, sure, and I guess I should have stated that my purpose wasn't to discuss the merits of that here, but rather just to assume it is the case to discuss an extension of that with like-minded posters.

I happen to believe a lot of people don't necessarily disagree with classically liberal values or with any extensions of those values, but do not choose to support the ideology anyways, so it's a natural question to wonder what it is that prevents that. I think it's an interesting subject to explore.

If you don't like libertarianism, fine, this discussion is of no interest to you.

EDIT: Oh wow nice edit with the irony thing. How long did it take you to come up with such a clever little zinger like that?

The fact that you interpret this post as an ad hominem attack says a lot. If you have any thoughts as to whether natural self glorification can lead to a dislike of laissez faire policy, feel free to share.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

As I understand it, here's your methodology:
Step 1 - assume that you're right (fair)
Step 2 - assume that most people know that you're right, but disagree with you for some reason
Step 3 - come up with a long, pop-psych explanation, supported by no evidence whatsoever, that just happens to conclude that people who disagree with you are delusional [censored].

Do you wonder why I'm skeptical? (I'm not hostile to traditional libertarianism, btw.)

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
"It doesn't help that too many in the "free market" camp are unwilling to admit that there are some areas where a totally free market is not optimal. "

Easy to assert, impossible to prove?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a theoretical basis, impossible to prove or disprove. On an empirical basis, unless societies consistently act irrationally, examples are numerous and counter-examples rare or non-existent.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

On further reflection, the reason I hate this argument is that it's just the sort of thing people come up with to avoid having to scrutinize their own beliefs. You see it all the time (X is just greedy, Y is godless and wants to destroy family values, Z hates America). I mentioned already that there seems to be no factual support for your theory? Why did you settle on one that makes your opponents completely wrong (and morally bad and lazy to boot)? Is it because it would make you uncomfortable if people disagreed with you in complete good faith and on a purely rational basis?

It could be that you're right, and the favorers of big government are just bitter about spending a lot on a college education. Even if that's true, so what? You still need to confront them on their arguments. And if you're wrong, you're just deluding yourself into avoiding having to question your own position. Seems like a losing bet.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

Bob,

For the final time, the point of this thread is not to question the legitimacy of whether I'm "right." I'm not gonna explore it because that's not what I'm talking about here. Like I said, I should have stated that. If I could go back and edit the post I'd put a big giant disclaimer up there that says that.

It's great to question your beliefs, and if you want to go through my posting history you'll realize that I'm far from a rar-rar libertarian or ACer.

This conversation is not worth having. Like I said, if you have any thoughts as to whether a person's natural bias of self-importance can lead to an aversion to laissez faire government, then feel free to share them. Otherwise, ignore the OP if you dislike it like it so much. Don't let it bother you.

EDIT: I admit I used strong language if that makes you feel better, Bob. I wouldn't have phrased stuff so brashly if the point of my post was actually to discuss the merits of libertarianism, as you seem to wish it was. The point was to assume *if* libertarianism is something most people will come to embrace (as many people on this board think is the case) then what obstacles are faced. Given the point of my post, obviously I will have to assume libertarianism's assumptions to get anywhere.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't help that too many in the "free market" camp are unwilling to admit that there are some areas where a totally free market is not optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to whose subjective, personal preferences? And if you hammer it into alignment in one area to make it "better" you just make it worse somewhere else.

It's closer to optimal for any reasonable, complete set of criteria than any forcibly-manipulated system, so it's "optimally sub-optimal."

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

I have a question for bob and anyone else who generally does not agree with libertarianism, since the OP sort of shuns you:

Let's pretend the market IS the optimal solution. Let's just consider that possibility for a moment. In this instance, do you think people would naturally tend to form creative opinions to think it isn't? Or would they be more likely to see it objectively?


I really fail to see how this question (brash language aside) is any sort of attack. I'd appreciate your answer.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question for bob and anyone else who generally does not agree with libertarianism, since the OP sort of shuns you:

Let's pretend the market IS the optimal solution. Let's just consider that possibility for a moment. In this instance, do you think people would naturally tend to form creative opinions to think it isn't? Or would they be more likely to see it objectively?


I really fail to see how this question (brash language aside) is any sort of attack. I'd appreciate your answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally agree with libertarianism, but I'll answer anyway.

No system will maximize utility for everyone, and anyone for whom the status quo isnt personally optimal will find reasons why the system itself isn't optimal, whether those reasons can be logically supported or not.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
"It doesn't help that too many in the "free market" camp are unwilling to admit that there are some areas where a totally free market is not optimal. "

Easy to assert, impossible to prove?

[/ QUOTE ]

You do know how the quote function works right ?????????????

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

So this is basically your post:
1.) Let's assume libertarianism is right.
2.) Therefore, everyone who doesn't believe in libertarianism is wrong.
3.) Let's discuss why so many people are wrong.

I could just as easily start a thread like this: "Let's assume that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. I've noticed that a lot of people don't believe in Flying Speghetti Monster. Let's discuss why these people are so delusional. Now, I won't accept arguments like 'Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist'. Let's just assume it, and thus assume that everyone who doesn't believe is crazy, and discuss why people are so crazy."

The reason most people do not believe in libertarianism is that they disagree with you premise.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

Another score

I would add that the nature of rational voter theory states even people that would benefit from libertarianism won't necessarily support it (for the reasons outlined in ALaws post). Basically, while lower taxes might be a huge benefit to you if your middle class and up, your vote towards lower taxes is just one of 300 million. Voting for lower taxes does very little to actually lower your taxes. However, voting for a big state "compassion" candidate can help you sound like a nice guy at parties. So the perceived personal benefit to voting for a system that is ultimately bad for you is there.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

Hasn't posts over the last several years been a sufficient enough proof of scrutinizing ones beliefs?

Once you've thought through and discussed your personal believes for years, and you still believe in them, you then start to ask two questions:

1) Why doesn't anyone else see this?
2) What can I do to convince people?

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

Why people do not believe in democracy

Self-righteousness.

The beauty of classical democracy is its simplicity. Belief in it does not require creative and self glorifying solution.

People who believe in government will point to lack of understanding as the reason a few oppose it. I agree, but I think it's more that people *don't want to* believe it even if they're capable of it. For self-righteous reasons. They want to be the guy with the solution. People want to feel like their ideas matter. And when you hold the "position" that democracy actually does a decent job at promoting economic and social health, you effectively eliminate your opportunity to be the hero who figured everything out.

People care about politics. People talk about politics. Joe Shmoe wants to feel like his ideas about something as important as politics are superior and cutting edge. He sees the "truth" that everyone else doesn't. He graduated with a fancy political science degree, HE HAS SOLUTIONS. HE'S AN IMPORTANT INDIVIDUAL WITH IMPORTANT IDEAS. He didn't pay $130K to come to realize that he should accept the fact that society has already solved most of the pressing social problems by implementing democracy. So he'll never accept it until it's smacking him in the face.

If there's any way to believe it isn't true, he will find ways to believe it isn't true.

SEE THE PROBLEM, GENIUS?

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
So this is basically your post:
1.) Let's assume libertarianism is right.
2.) Therefore, everyone who doesn't believe in libertarianism is wrong.
3.) Let's discuss why so many people are wrong.

I could just as easily start a thread like this: "Let's assume that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. I've noticed that a lot of people don't believe in Flying Speghetti Monster. Let's discuss why these people are so delusional. Now, I won't accept arguments like 'Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist'. Let's just assume it, and thus assume that everyone who doesn't believe is crazy, and discuss why people are so crazy."

The reason most people do not believe in libertarianism is that they disagree with you premise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it with you people?

Yes, you could make a post like that. But no one believes in the flying spaghetti monster so it's doubtful it requires a bias to reject. I maintain that many people could benefit from libertarianism who don't see that.

I hear people talk all the time about "freedom" and "capitalism" and this and that... but then they conclude that a 27% income tax is what they stand for instead of 0%. It's like... huh? Have you spent the last decade conducting rigorous economic analysis to arrive at this conclusion? Or do you just like hearing yourself talk? They'll defend cigarettes or even marijuana on strictly libertarian grounds, but then they'll forget that and think when it comes to something like acid their hands on solution is better. They'll seem to hold libertarian ideals but will find ways to shun them.

Those are the people I have in mind here. I'm not talking about people that will never embrace libertarianism anyways.

Yes, you could make the same claim for socialism. There are probably biases that people have for whatever reasons that make it hard for them to appreciate the concept. Feel free to make a thread exploring that issue. If I choose to respond, I'll lend you the courtesy of staying on topic and not making it personal because I fail to take 3 seconds to understand the point of your thread.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So this is basically your post:
1.) Let's assume libertarianism is right.
2.) Therefore, everyone who doesn't believe in libertarianism is wrong.
3.) Let's discuss why so many people are wrong.

I could just as easily start a thread like this: "Let's assume that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. I've noticed that a lot of people don't believe in Flying Speghetti Monster. Let's discuss why these people are so delusional. Now, I won't accept arguments like 'Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist'. Let's just assume it, and thus assume that everyone who doesn't believe is crazy, and discuss why people are so crazy."

The reason most people do not believe in libertarianism is that they disagree with you premise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it with you people?

Yes, you could make a post like that. But no one believes in the flying spaghetti monster so it's doubtful it requires a bias to reject. I maintain that many people could benefit from libertarianism who don't see that.


[/ QUOTE ]

The spaghetti monster is almost as popular a libertarianism. Why should it require "bias" to reject something that 99% of the population rejects?

Most people that "talk about freedom and capitalism" believe that free markets are good in some cases and bad in others. Most people who defend cigarettes and marijauna like cigarettes and marijuana. There is no deep-seated cognitive deficiency driving these views.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
The beauty of classical democracy is its simplicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

O rly?

The beauty of democracy is, I would say, its perceived goodness and practicality. It's anything but simple.

[ QUOTE ]
Belief in it does not require creative and self glorifying solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

O rly?

What do you base this other than just your cute idea to fiddle with my post? I think the reinforcement that problems are best solved by man's action rather than man's inaction is indeed self-glorifying.

Libertarianism provides no way for someone to think of something earth shattering. The best you can do is articulate your positions well. But I think people like "creating" their ideas, rather than just principally following a school.

That's my whole point here. That since libertarianism does not seem to allow man to "have a hand" in what happens, he will be less likely to embrace it than in the absence of that bias.

[ QUOTE ]
People who believe in government will point to lack of understanding as the reason a few oppose it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Again, what sense does this make?

I'd say people who believe in government will point to lack of patriotism or civic responsibility as the reason some people oppose it.


[ QUOTE ]
SEE THE PROBLEM, GENIUS?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't. Like I said, you could probably make a fair claim for any political ideology as to why some people who would benefit from it are biased to not go for it. It doesn't mean there's a "problem" with my claim.

But you have to do more than just insert your ideology into my reasons for this ideology. Because these reasons have nothing to do the reason people would be biased against government.

This is pretty weak. I expect more from you, Phil.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So this is basically your post:
1.) Let's assume libertarianism is right.
2.) Therefore, everyone who doesn't believe in libertarianism is wrong.
3.) Let's discuss why so many people are wrong.

I could just as easily start a thread like this: "Let's assume that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. I've noticed that a lot of people don't believe in Flying Speghetti Monster. Let's discuss why these people are so delusional. Now, I won't accept arguments like 'Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist'. Let's just assume it, and thus assume that everyone who doesn't believe is crazy, and discuss why people are so crazy."

The reason most people do not believe in libertarianism is that they disagree with you premise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it with you people?

Yes, you could make a post like that. But no one believes in the flying spaghetti monster so it's doubtful it requires a bias to reject. I maintain that many people could benefit from libertarianism who don't see that.


[/ QUOTE ]

The spaghetti monster is almost as popular a libertarianism. Why should it require "bias" to reject something that 99% of the population rejects?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't necessarily.

It's only chip-on-my-shoulder anti-libertarians like you who insist on being involved in this discussion that seem to think that's what I'm implying.

Plenty of people will reject libertarianism because libertarianism is not a good solution for them. Happy? But I do think the nature of the way libertarianism is perceived lends itself to be rejected by some people who would otherwise believe in it.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
O rly?

The beauty of democracy is, I would say, its perceived goodness and practicality. It's anything but simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
The idea is simple. The people choose their leaders and clerks and make a system of law such that individual rights are protected. All the rest is detail.

The idea of "this is my property, this is your property, there are no commons" is a very long way from simple. How do you define property without law? Is it the number of guns you can hire to keep everyone off a certain area?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People who believe in government will point to lack of understanding as the reason a few oppose it.

[/ QUOTE ]
What? Again, what is this based on?

I'd say people who believe in government will point to lack of patriotism or civic responsibility as the reason some people oppose it.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't say anything, it's circular. I truly believe that people that have grown up under stability and democracy take for granted the protections it offers and the restraint it places on the uglier and irrational side of human nature (which they never get to see). But, since this is your thread and I'm rudely hijacking:

[ QUOTE ]
That's my whole point here. That since libertarianism does not seem to allow man to "have a hand" in what happens, he will be less likely to embrace it than in the absence of that bias.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that people are less likely to seek organic solutions over structured ones. The very idea of having no backup is frightening. Whether that fear is based in actually is an important part of the debate I think. The two can't be separated out as you're trying to do.

BTW, I would support anarchy if 90+% of people were intelligent, rational, fair minded and compassionate individuals. It's a no brainer. But if that were the case, government would work just fine too, merely as a system of convenience and charity.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
I truly believe that people that have grown up under stability and democracy take for granted the protections it offers and the restraint it places on the uglier and irrational side of human nature (which they never get to see).

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with this. I don't really consider myself in the AC camp, which is why I thought I could get away with this post without having to discuss the merits of AC (and why I deliberately avoided the term). But obviously I'm just a name on the internet, so once someone reads this post, I may as well be in the AC camp.

It's not to say that I don't think anarchy could maybe be *better still*, but I agree with you that many who do argue for total de-regulation seem to neglect the convenience of *not* having to protect ourselves (even if it otherwise can be argued to be more efficient).

You can say it's immoral to require other people to protect me. But that's really all you can say to persuade me if I say I like the convenience and consistency of being protected by a state, even if it means less cost efficiency according to what you value. Maybe to me, defending myself would be the worst thing imaginable and is worth millions of dollars.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that people are less likely to seek organic solutions over structured ones. The very idea of having no backup is frightening. Whether that fear is based in actually is an important part of the debate I think. The two can't be separated out as you're trying to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also a good point. But I agree with you because I think it doesn't matter whether that fear is legitimate. Something I believe strongly in is the "objective value of the subjective belief." Because you'll make better decisions later if you know why you believe something, rather than just if you're convinced to trust objective merit that you can't see as well. Poker is a good example of what I'm trying to say.

People will read books and take advice. "What should I do in this spot?" Should you make a button raise here? As if there's a "right" answer. It depends on your ability to make good decisions on later streets. Maybe *I* should make a certain decision in a certain spot, because based on my abilities and intuition of the situation I have a good idea what range of decisions will be good ones later. But maybe you'd be best off with a different one.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I would support anarchy if 90+% of people were intelligent, rational, fair minded and compassionate individuals. It's a no brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not really sure what this means. Aren't these all relative terms? If everyone was just smarter then the way I see it is we'd be smart enough to interpret new burdens.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So this is basically your post:
1.) Let's assume libertarianism is right.
2.) Therefore, everyone who doesn't believe in libertarianism is wrong.
3.) Let's discuss why so many people are wrong.

I could just as easily start a thread like this: "Let's assume that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. I've noticed that a lot of people don't believe in Flying Speghetti Monster. Let's discuss why these people are so delusional. Now, I won't accept arguments like 'Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist'. Let's just assume it, and thus assume that everyone who doesn't believe is crazy, and discuss why people are so crazy."

The reason most people do not believe in libertarianism is that they disagree with you premise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it with you people?

Yes, you could make a post like that. But no one believes in the flying spaghetti monster so it's doubtful it requires a bias to reject. I maintain that many people could benefit from libertarianism who don't see that.


[/ QUOTE ]

The spaghetti monster is almost as popular a libertarianism. Why should it require "bias" to reject something that 99% of the population rejects?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is impossible for a person to reject something they are unaware of, so your 99% number is obviously off (ignoring the fact that it would be more like 85-90% if everyone was aware).

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
O rly?

The beauty of democracy is, I would say, its perceived goodness and practicality. It's anything but simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
The idea is simple. The people choose their leaders and clerks and make a system of law such that individual rights are protected. All the rest is detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. But the "detail" is where things get complicated. Who are "the people"? Why do I have to have the same leader as my neighbor? Why do people who live in seattle have a different leader than those in vancouver, while they have to share a leader with those in miami?

The idea is simple. Ponies for every child. All the rest is detail.

[ QUOTE ]
The idea of "this is my property, this is your property, there are no commons" is a very long way from simple. How do you define property without law? Is it the number of guns you can hire to keep everyone off a certain area?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, but these aren't issues that democracy has to wrestle with?

[ QUOTE ]
I truly believe that people that have grown up under stability and democracy take for granted the protections it offers and the restraint it places on the uglier and irrational side of human nature (which they never get to see).

[/ QUOTE ]


http://www.delawarenationalguard.com...s/civilwar.jpg

http://www.mbe.doe.gov/me70/manhatta...CloudLarge.gif

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I would support anarchy if 90+% of people were intelligent, rational, fair minded and compassionate individuals. It's a no brainer. But if that were the case, government would work just fine too, merely as a system of convenience and charity.

[/ QUOTE ]

People are too dumb, I have to tell them what to do.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hasn't posts over the last several years been a sufficient enough proof of scrutinizing ones beliefs?

Once you've thought through and discussed your personal believes for years, and you still believe in them, you then start to ask two questions:

1) Why doesn't anyone else see this?
2) What can I do to convince people?

[/ QUOTE ]

People have been trying to figure out politics and economics for thousands of years. Thinking critically for several years in no way gives you license to start concluding that people who disagree with you are delusion or motivated by some hypothetical psychological compulsion.

Good faith efforts to understand what your opponents think and why and how to convince them are of course an entirely different thing, but I don't think that's what's going on here. In any case, OP doesn't want the thread going in this direction, so I'll leave it there.

Re: Why people do not believe in libertarianism
 

[ QUOTE ]
People have been trying to figure out politics and economics for thousands of years. Thinking critically for several years in no way gives you license to start concluding that people who disagree with you are delusion or motivated by some hypothetical psychological compulsion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? People *are* biased and delusional. I am and you are. We might seem to be more reasonable than others, but at our core we're all biased to what we believe, which is no better than what anyone else believes.

People are motivated by all sorts "psychological compulsions." And I think the desire to form unique solutions is one of them.

It's not that I don't want to make "good faith efforts" to understand what my "opponents" think; it's just that exploring biases requires an assumed truth. And all I'm interested in this thread is exploring bias.

I've said several times that the same case can be made for other ideologies (just for different reasons). Whether you realize it or not, you're the only one who's being closed minded here. You fail to allow for the possibility that libertarianism *could be* "right" (which is all that is required to explore my suggestion in the OP). Some of us happen to think libertarianism is good. To us it's truth. You disagree. Fine. I'm not excluding the possibility that your ideas are "right" and others (like me) just don't see it because of some bias of our own; please don't make the same exclusion for our ideology.

[ QUOTE ]
OP doesn't want the thread going in this direction, so I'll leave it there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the courtesy. I think we're still not seeing eye to eye though on what exactly I'm trying to express. Oh well. My apologies again for making the OP read like "this is the only reason" as opposed to "this is one possible reason." The latter was all I meant. The wording was mostly for effect, since this thread only seemed to be of interest to the choir anyways.