Shorthanded river spot
 

Four-handed live 20-40.

Button is Goofball, who knows who I am on 2+2 and that Justin A is "always telling [me] [I'm] too aggro." But I've played too passively, if anything, in this session so far. (Rotating cast of opponents: a loose-passive guy, a looser-more-passive guy, Justin A, and Goofball.)

Goofball opens the button. (He's shown an ability to open-limp the cutoff, for whatever that's worth.) I threebet J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] out of the SB. BB calls and Goofball calls.

Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet, BB folds, Goofball calls.

Turn 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Check-check.

River 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Bet or checkraise?

--Nate

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

He's never calling a checkraise, because goofball plays good. But I doubt he's calling a bet either. He has a missed draw a lot of the time here, because he ain't peeling the flop with a pocker pair. I think the right play is check, and if you're lucky enough to get him to bet, you should merely flat-call for two reasons:

a) he won't call a raise anyway
b) you'll get the chance to slowroll when he flips over KT and proudly says "king high!" to which you shake your head, exhale briefly through your nose in a little frustrated laugh, nod a couple times, tap your cards to the table, and say "I knew you had nothing" and then go to fold but then find pocket jacks on your way to the muck. Laugh and take his chips.

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

bet the turn.

EDIT: nah. don't

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
b) you'll get the chance to slowroll when he flips over KT and proudly says "king high!" to which you shake your head, exhale briefly through your nose in a little frustrated laugh, nod a couple times, tap your cards to the table, and say "I knew you had nothing" and then go to fold but then find pocket jacks on your way to the muck. Laugh and take his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOLOLOL!!
If there was a manual for slowrollers, this should be in it!
Hilarious!

bc

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

Are we c/c or c/f the turn?

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

I presume this is the game where both justin and patrick are super drunk, fwiw.

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn.

EDIT: nah. don't

[/ QUOTE ]

I like a turn bet and a river bet for value. As played bet and get called by king or jack high. These shorthanded 2+2er filled games are always showdown monkey fests where any pair is the nuts.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

Bugstud--

There was some beer around when I showed up but I didn't get a super-drunk vibe. I also thought Justin played very well (for the 35 or however many hands I played with him).

DeathDonkey--

Thanks for this comment. I'm pretty sure you're right in a drunken game, but things were a bit more serious the other night. Though I'm not sure that makes a bet incorrect.

Ben--

I was check-calling the turn unless some on-the-spot soul-reading dictated otherwise.

Joker--

Excellent point. That's the sort of insight I come to 2+2 for.

--Nate

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

Why not bet turn and river?

I don't know what kind of goofball this player is but I can't see him checking an Ace on the turn. Also if he had A+j,q,k he probably would have capped with position. I would put him on a nut diamond draw or small pp.....eh maybe KQ of hearts?

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

love2--

Not that I don't think betting the turn is right--it's somewhere between close and definitely right--but I think that it's a little misguided to put someone on a very narrow range after he raises the button, calls a threebet, and calls this flop.

I was considering checkraising the river because I thought he'd have to bet many of his hands for value and he might bluff with some of them too. But I'm pretty sure it's better to just let him call (especially because he'll fold a lot of his hands to the raise).

--Nate

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

I would bet the turn, check the river. I think by checking the turn you leave yourself very vulnerable to getting outplayed as a lot of tougher players would put you on a hand that you have and test you with a bet.

That being said, I don't understand why goofball would check the turn here. If the board were not paired, I would understand checking behind with a hand like JhTx or some other broadway gutshot/flush draw combo, but not taking a shot here seems to be pretty bad.

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

drbk2--

OK, so often this question is a passive-aggressive assertion that checking is better, but that's not the case here; I'm just curious. What would you do against a turn raise?

--Nate

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

betting both turn and river for value is dumb

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bugstud--

There was some beer around when I showed up but I didn't get a super-drunk vibe. I also thought Justin played very well (for the 35 or however many hands I played with him).



[/ QUOTE ]

Goofball was super super drunk fwiw. I was kinda drunk but playing very seriously because I wanted to bust this random guy who was talking [censored] all night and was the reason we were playing 20/40 in the first place instead of the 4/8 that the game originally was.

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

Wow, I only very vaguely remember this hand. I don't remember what I had or what the river action was.

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
drbk2--

OK, so often this question is a passive-aggressive assertion that checking is better, but that's not the case here; I'm just curious. What would you do against a turn raise?

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

I never played against goofball, but I think a very good two plus twoer knowing he's up against another very good two plus twoer would make a fold to a turn raise here pretty standard. In my experience, the better two players are in a heads up pot, the more straightforward the hand is played.

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

what the hell happened? :-) I'm interested in the results more than anyone!

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Four-handed live 20-40.

Button is Goofball, who knows who I am on 2+2 and that Justin A is "always telling [me] [I'm] too aggro." But I've played too passively, if anything, in this session so far. (Rotating cast of opponents: a loose-passive guy, a looser-more-passive guy, Justin A, and Goofball.)

Goofball opens the button. (He's shown an ability to open-limp the cutoff, for whatever that's worth.) I threebet J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] out of the SB. BB calls and Goofball calls.

Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet, BB folds, Goofball calls.

Turn 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Check-check.

River 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Bet or checkraise?

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really believe that he will call a bet on the river with a K high butsted draw, then bet. However, I think you have a better chance of getting a bet out of him by checking to induce a bluff.

I don't see the point of a check raise. What does the raise get that the call would not get? If you succeed in inducing a bluff you win the pot by calling. If he calls a river check raise you are probably beat.

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Four-handed live 20-40.

Button is Goofball, who knows who I am on 2+2 and that Justin A is "always telling [me] [I'm] too aggro." But I've played too passively, if anything, in this session so far. (Rotating cast of opponents: a loose-passive guy, a looser-more-passive guy, Justin A, and Goofball.)

Goofball opens the button. (He's shown an ability to open-limp the cutoff, for whatever that's worth.) I threebet J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] out of the SB. BB calls and Goofball calls.

Flop A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet, BB folds, Goofball calls.

Turn 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Check-check.

River 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Bet or checkraise?

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really believe that he will call a bet on the river with a K high butsted draw, then bet. However, I think you have a better chance of getting a bet out of him by checking to induce a bluff.

I don't see the point of a check raise. What does the raise get that the call would not get? If you succeed in inducing a bluff you win the pot by calling. If he calls a river check raise you are probably beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Emerson--

My thinking was that he can beat two jacks roughly 1% of the time after he checks behind on the the turn. As for his calling the checkraise... it's shorthanded and he's skeptical of me. You never know.

--Nate

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
what the hell happened? :-) I'm interested in the results more than anyone!

[/ QUOTE ]

***RESULTS***

I bet and Goofball called. I showed two jacks. Goofball messed around with his chips for a while. Justin A pre-emptively yelled at Goofball for being a jerk and slowrolling. Then both Justin and I realized he was just paying me off.

Looks like Goofball's holding has been lost to history.

--Nate

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

Checking is slightly better than betting.

Re: Shorthanded river spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking is slightly better than betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think in this instance, because he was so much knowledge of the other player, that betting is still better.