The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

As a NLHE 6 max player that has recently converted to PLO, I have been reading as much of the limited material out there as possible. One of the books most recommended was: How Good is your Pot Limit Omaha, by Stewart Reuben.

In this book there is a hand analysis on page 22. In answer 1 he states that, "Position is MUCH LESS important in Omaha High than it is in Hold'em or Omaha High-Low.

WTF????

Without question position is important in both games, but is this really the case???

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

He is a fruitcake, just ignore him.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

wow. position is more important in omaha than pretty much any other game. what a retard

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow. position is more important in omaha than pretty much any other game. what a retard

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you're a stortstacking ratholing bastard, that is.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

Look, it's very important in big bet poker. If you ignore position in either form, you will lose money. So does it matter if position is 2.0 fold important in PLO, but only 1.75x in NLHE?

A problem with a lot of the Ciaffone/Reuben advice is that they just "tell you the answer" but don't go into any sort of proof. Did they happen upon this after many years of poker? Or did they get out their abbacusses and calculate it?

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/c...right0707.html

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

I'll read this later. My unexploitable strategy. Raise preflop, call any reraise, c/r any two pair+ to get all in.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

Troll,

I know that position is important in both games, or any big bet poker game. In fact, I felt one of my biggest advances was realizing the power of position.

What I was asking though, is that a noted auther AND high stakes player, who is probably much better than the both of us put together, made a statement to the contrary. Now grant it I know he is talking about a different game (full ring) at a different time, but a statement like that is pretty strong.

It did get me thinking though, and I'm wondering if what he was talking about was since in PLO one hand is a much smaller favorite over another possible hand, the need for position is not as great an advantage as it is in holdem where somebody with KK is in very bad shape against somebody with AA. Basically in NLHE you have one hand working, whereas in PLO you can have several hands working (made and drawing), so maybe that negates a little bit of the positional disadvantage.

I'm not saying I agree with his thinking. I'm just saying that I'm trying to figure out what his reasoning is behind that statement.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Troll,

I know that position is important in both games, or any big bet poker game. In fact, I felt one of my biggest advances was realizing the power of position.

What I was asking though, is that a noted auther AND high stakes player, who is probably much better than the both of us put together, made a statement to the contrary. Now grant it I know he is talking about a different game (full ring) at a different time, but a statement like that is pretty strong.

It did get me thinking though, and I'm wondering if what he was talking about was since in PLO one hand is a much smaller favorite over another possible hand, the need for position is not as great an advantage as it is in holdem where somebody with KK is in very bad shape against somebody with AA. Basically in NLHE you have one hand working, whereas in PLO you can have several hands working (made and drawing), so maybe that negates a little bit of the positional disadvantage.

I'm not saying I agree with his thinking. I'm just saying that I'm trying to figure out what his reasoning is behind that statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you severely overestimate how good you have to play poker to be able to write a book on it.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll read this later. My unexploitable strategy. Raise preflop, call any reraise, c/r any two pair+ to get all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is your unexploitable strategy unexploitable if you and opponent are at 250 bb?

How about if you are OOP vs a passive opponent when one draw hits on the turn and you are both at 150bb?

Do you have an unexploitable straregy for that Rolf?

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

i can just suppose he was saying about better Pot control in position you get cause its a POT Limited game, and he wasnt saying it about OMAHA in general

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll read this later. My unexploitable strategy. Raise preflop, call any reraise, c/r any two pair+ to get all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is your unexploitable strategy unexploitable if you and opponent are at 250 bb?

How about if you are OOP vs a passive opponent when one draw hits on the turn and you are both at 150bb?

Do you have an unexploitable straregy for that Rolf?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. C/R FLOP AWW EEEN.

I haven't read this article but if you're suggesting there's a universal unexplotable strategy that works for all those depths, yeeesh. The only thing I can think of is "bet draws and made hands the same and run g00t."

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

Funny, that line has been golden against me recently.

I'm pretty positive that Reuben is trolling when he says that position is less important.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]


I haven't read this article but if you're suggesting there's a universal unexplotable strategy that works for all those depths, yeeesh.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm saying that I don't think that there is an unexploitable strategy across all situations. (For short stacked situations yes)

I was simply responding to your comment implying that you thought that there was.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I haven't read this article but if you're suggesting there's a universal unexplotable strategy that works for all those depths, yeeesh.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm saying that I don't think that there is an unexploitable strategy across all situations. (For short stacked situations yes)

I was simply responding to your comment implying that you thought that there was.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is universal if you only occupy the universe in which you can get it all in on the flop. I never said anywhere in my comment that it was unexploitable across all scenarios.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is universal if you only occupy the universe in which you can get it all in on the flop. I never said anywhere in my comment that it was unexploitable across all scenarios.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent*. We agree.




*Excellent for you that is. If we didn't agree, then I would prove you wrong and you'd be so embarrassed you probably wouldn't post on 2+2 for a day and a half.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

lol troll burn

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

while position in plo is generally "more important" than in nlh, being "in position" doesn't necessarily have more value. there are many situations in plo where i would rather be out of position than in.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

Really, such as?

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Really, such as?

[/ QUOTE ]

People that bet 100% of the time when checked to.

And then in between them and you, players that are Will Call Stations.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
while position in plo is generally "more important" than in nlh, being "in position" doesn't necessarily have more value. there are many situations in plo where i would rather be out of position than in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but Please, don’t reveal too much.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

Thanks for the comments so far.

I agree that the deeper the stacks, the more important position becomes. Also, position relative to the raiser, or likely bettor, is just as, if not more important than absolute position relative to the button.

Regardless, I think PLO has both more room to vary your play as well as exploit various styles of play.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

wow swedish dude with 8 posts regged 5/7/03 comes out of the woodwork to tell you not to reveal too much. impressive!

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow swedish dude with 8 posts regged 5/7/03 comes out of the woodwork to tell you not to reveal too much. impressive!

[/ QUOTE ]

Shortstacking ratholers are very protective of their "strategy". Push and pray preflop with any reasonable hand, checkraise and pray postflop with any piece. Unexploitable lol.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
while position in plo is generally "more important" than in nlh, being "in position" doesn't necessarily have more value. there are many situations in plo where i would rather be out of position than in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but Please, don’t reveal too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, we don't want the bad players who don't understand position to start learning more things that they can grossly misapply. That would just be horrible for the games. Keep the poker secrets secret guys.

Re: The Importance of Position: Hold\'em vs. PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]

Shortstacking ratholers are very protective of their "strategy".

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so true that it's funny.