All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

I think this deserves its own thread.

Similar ground rules as the all-time lineup thread:

1. The pitcher must have spent a majority of his career with that team, or more seasons with that team than with any other.

2. Choose four starting pitchers and two relievers. You must select a pitcher in his most common role, e.g., Jon Smoltz is a starter and Dennis Eckersley is a reliever.

3. Choose a rotation that best serves your favorite team.

I'll start with my Houston Astros:

SP Nolan Ryan - spent only 9 of 27 years with the Astros, but more with Houston than with anyone else (8 with Angels, 6 with Rangers)
SP Roy Oswalt - has a chance to move up to #1 on this list, he's that good
SP J.R. Richard - if not for stroke, a sure Hall of Famer, and the only pitcher who caused Mike Schmidt to feel fear at the plate
SP Don Wilson - Mike Scott was a possibility here, but his career was Maris-esque (best in the league for 2-3 years and that's it)
RP Billy Wagner - still don't understand how a 5'9", 170 lb. guy can throw 100 mph
RP Joe Sambito - underrated lefty who was a lights-out closer for a long time

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Pedro Martinez

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves

Sick starting pitching:

SP Warren Spahn
SP Greg Maddux
SP John Smoltz
SP Tom Glavine
(Reserves - Bob Buhl, Johnny Sain, Lew Burdette)

Solid relief, but nothing exciting:

RP Gene Garber
RP Mark Wohlers

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

New York Yankees
SP - Whitey Ford. The Chairman of the Board.
SP - Ron Guidry. One of the best seasons ever in '78. 25-3 with a 1.74 ERA. Just filthy.
SP - Mel Stottlemyre. Very underappreciated, since he played on some weak Yankee teams. 3x 20-gm winner; 40 shutouts; career ERA under 3.
SP - Allie Reynolds. The horse of the DiMaggio-era teams.
SP - Andy Pettitte. Because I need some modern love, and because I'd take him on a cold October night over a lot of guys.

RP - Goose Gossage. Awesome.
RP - Mariano Rivera. The best ever.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

k I did this in the other thread:

Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Luis Tiant
Cy Young (I'm claiming him unless a Cleveland Spider fan pops up)

RP: Jonathan Papelbon
RP: hmmm Dick Radatz?

in terms of ERA+ in peak years, I don't think you can beat this group. if you adjust for ballpark it would look even better.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves

Sick starting pitching:
SP Greg Maddux
SP Warren Spahn
SP John Smoltz
SP Phil Niekro
SP Tom Glavine

[/ QUOTE ]

Added a 5th starter, and moved Maddux to #1.

edit: Just noticed the rule of 4 starters and 2 closers... Hmm.. I like the 5-man rotation! But if I had to, I would drop Glavine.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves

Sick starting pitching:
SP Greg Maddux
SP Warren Spahn
SP John Smoltz
SP Phil Niekro
SP Tom Glavine

[/ QUOTE ]

Added a 5th starter, and moved Maddux to #1.

edit: Just noticed the rule of 4 starters and 2 closers... Hmm.. I like the 5-man rotation! But if I had to, I would drop Glavine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep Glavine and move Smoltz to the pen, LDO.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves

Sick starting pitching:
SP Greg Maddux
SP Warren Spahn
SP John Smoltz
SP Phil Niekro
SP Tom Glavine

[/ QUOTE ]

Added a 5th starter, and moved Maddux to #1.

edit: Just noticed the rule of 4 starters and 2 closers... Hmm.. I like the 5-man rotation! But if I had to, I would drop Glavine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep Glavine and move Smoltz to the pen, LDO.

[/ QUOTE ]

BZZZZZZT not allowed, see OP.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves

Sick starting pitching:
SP Greg Maddux
SP Warren Spahn
SP John Smoltz
SP Phil Niekro
SP Tom Glavine

[/ QUOTE ]

Added a 5th starter, and moved Maddux to #1.

edit: Just noticed the rule of 4 starters and 2 closers... Hmm.. I like the 5-man rotation! But if I had to, I would drop Glavine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep Glavine and move Smoltz to the pen, LDO.

[/ QUOTE ]

BZZZZZZT not allowed, see OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the internet, I choose to randomly ignore your arbitrary rules.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cy Young

[/ QUOTE ]

One of my favorite sports quotes: "I won more games than you ever saw."

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Chicago Cubs

SP:
Rick Sutcliffe
Mordecai Brown
Ed Reulbach
Fergie Jenkins

RP:
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves

Sick starting pitching:
SP Greg Maddux
SP Warren Spahn
SP John Smoltz
SP Phil Niekro
SP Tom Glavine

[/ QUOTE ]

Added a 5th starter, and moved Maddux to #1.

edit: Just noticed the rule of 4 starters and 2 closers... Hmm.. I like the 5-man rotation! But if I had to, I would drop Glavine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep Glavine and move Smoltz to the pen, LDO.

[/ QUOTE ]

BZZZZZZT not allowed, see OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the internet, I choose to randomly ignore your arbitrary rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

And split infinitives.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Don Newcombe
4. Don Sutton

1. Eric Gagne
2. Takashi Saito

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

New York Mets

1. Tom Seaver
2. Dwight Gooden
3. David Cone
4. Jerry Koosman

1. John Franco
2. Tug McGraw

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Toronto Blue Jays

1. Dave Stieb
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jimmy Key
4. Jim Clancy? (Ugh)

1. Tom Henke
2. Duane Ward

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Solid relief, but nothing exciting:

RP Mark Wohlers

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding, right? Wohlers is more than "solid."

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Don Newcombe
4. Don Sutton

1. Eric Gagne
2. Takashi Saito

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would take Hershiser in his prime over Sutton. Shorter career, but IMHO much higher peak.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Don Newcombe
4. Don Sutton

1. Eric Gagne
2. Takashi Saito

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would take Hershiser in his prime over Sutton. Shorter career, but IMHO much higher peak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Hershiser's 1988 season is the best single-season performance by a pitcher in my lifetime (38 years).

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Toronto Blue Jays

1. Dave Stieb
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jimmy Key
4. Jim Clancy? (Ugh)

1. Tom Henke
2. Duane Ward

[/ QUOTE ]

Pat Hentgen or Juan Guzman over Clancy?

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Hershiser's 1988 season is the best single-season performance by a pitcher in my lifetime (38 years).

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit of a derail here, but what about Dwight Gooden '85?
24-4, 1.53 ERA, 0.965 WHIP, 268 K, 69 BB, 16 CG, 8 SHO.

Hershiser's '88 for comparison
23-8, 2.26 ERA, 1.052 WHIP, 178 K, 73 BB, 15 CG, 8 SHO.

85 Must have been a sick year for NL pitching, I see that Hershiser was 3rd in CY voting, and that year was arguably better than his '88:
19-3, 2.03 ERA, 1.031 WHIP, 157 K, 68 BB, 9 CG, 5 SHO.

Looks like John Tudor was the other guy with more votes that year, with a 21-8, 1.93 ERA, 0.94 WHIP season. Sick.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I think Hershiser's 1988 season is the best single-season performance by a pitcher in my lifetime (38 years).

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit of a derail here, but what about Dwight Gooden '85?
24-4, 1.53 ERA, 0.965 WHIP, 268 K, 69 BB, 16 CG, 8 SHO.

Hershiser's '88 for comparison
23-8, 2.26 ERA, 1.052 WHIP, 178 K, 73 BB, 15 CG, 8 SHO.

85 Must have been a sick year for NL pitching, I see that Hershiser was 3rd in CY voting, and that year was arguably better than his '88:
19-3, 2.03 ERA, 1.031 WHIP, 157 K, 68 BB, 9 CG, 5 SHO.

Looks like John Tudor was the other guy with more votes that year, with a 21-8, 1.93 ERA, 0.94 WHIP season. Sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ending the year with 6 straight shutouts should earn you the nod. Plus, include his playoff and World Series performances, and Hershiser's '88 was the best in my lifetime as well. He also nearly out hit McGwire and Canseco on his own.

But yeah, Gooden and Tudor had a pretty sick '85.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Don Newcombe
4. Don Sutton

1. Eric Gagne
2. Takashi Saito

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would take Hershiser in his prime over Sutton. Shorter career, but IMHO much higher peak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Hershiser's 1988 season is the best single-season performance by a pitcher in my lifetime (38 years).

[/ QUOTE ]

after you adjust his #'s for pitching in a pitchers park, in the NL, and for defense, his 1988 would be Pedro's 8th or 9th best season

Pedro 2000 owns all

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Yeah, I was going to say, did anyone bother to check Pedro's or Maddux's seasons in their prime...

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

I should have mentioned that I'm not a stathead and I was just most impressed with the way Hershiser... um... didn't allow any runs in the second half of the season, playoff, and WS.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I was going to say, did anyone bother to check Pedro's or Maddux's seasons in their prime...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because we are lazy and we knew you would probably do it for us. You're always good for stuff like that. Don't let us down.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Don Newcombe
4. Don Sutton

1. Eric Gagne
2. Takashi Saito

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would take Hershiser in his prime over Sutton. Shorter career, but IMHO much higher peak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Hershiser's 1988 season is the best single-season performance by a pitcher in my lifetime (38 years).

[/ QUOTE ]

after you adjust his #'s for pitching in a pitchers park, in the NL, and for defense, his 1988 would be Pedro's 8th or 9th best season

Pedro 2000 owns all

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the adjustment for carrying your team through the post season?
40 Innings of post-season pitching with an era of 1.06 makes Hershiser's 88 season nastier than anything Pedro ever did.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Don Newcombe
4. Don Sutton

1. Eric Gagne
2. Takashi Saito

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would take Hershiser in his prime over Sutton. Shorter career, but IMHO much higher peak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Hershiser's 1988 season is the best single-season performance by a pitcher in my lifetime (38 years).

[/ QUOTE ]

after you adjust his #'s for pitching in a pitchers park, in the NL, and for defense, his 1988 would be Pedro's 8th or 9th best season

Pedro 2000 owns all

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the adjustment for carrying your team through the post season?
40 Innings of post-season pitching with an era of 1.06 makes Hershiser's 88 season nastier than anything Pedro ever did.

[/ QUOTE ]

nope

Pedro's 99 and 2000 are beyond insane

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
I should have mentioned that I'm not a stathead and I was just most impressed with the way Hershiser... um... didn't allow any runs in the second half of the season, playoff, and WS.

[/ QUOTE ]

in 2000, pitching 1/2 his games in a run scoring park, and against DH's, in an offense happy league, Pedro allowed 42 runs in 217 innings.

in 1988, pitching 1/2 his games in a pitchers park, and against pitchers, Orel allowed 67 in 267 innings. so he threw 50 more innings and allowed 25 more runs.

Orel had a ridiculous stretch, but the seasons really don't compare.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Don Newcombe
4. Don Sutton

1. Eric Gagne
2. Takashi Saito

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would take Hershiser in his prime over Sutton. Shorter career, but IMHO much higher peak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Hershiser's 1988 season is the best single-season performance by a pitcher in my lifetime (38 years).

[/ QUOTE ]

after you adjust his #'s for pitching in a pitchers park, in the NL, and for defense, his 1988 would be Pedro's 8th or 9th best season

Pedro 2000 owns all

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the adjustment for carrying your team through the post season?
40 Innings of post-season pitching with an era of 1.06 makes Hershiser's 88 season nastier than anything Pedro ever did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Small sample size strikes again. 88 Hersheiser < any Pedro. Having a great 2 month run in one season does equate to having a great 5+ year run. Oh, but it was the playoffs. Clutchiness and heart and guts and all that jazz. Nevermind; Orel Hersheiser is obviously much better than Pedro Martinez. DICY?




No, I don't.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

I'm a younger Yankee fan (in my 20s) but I'll do my best to construct what I think is "the best"

Roger Clemens
Whitey Ford
Ron Guidry
David Cone
Lefty Gomez

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should have mentioned that I'm not a stathead and I was just most impressed with the way Hershiser... um... didn't allow any runs in the second half of the season, playoff, and WS.

[/ QUOTE ]

in 2000, pitching 1/2 his games in a run scoring park, and against DH's, in an offense happy league, Pedro allowed 42 runs in 217 innings.

in 1988, pitching 1/2 his games in a pitchers park, and against pitchers, Orel allowed 67 in 267 innings. so he threw 50 more innings and allowed 25 more runs.

Orel had a ridiculous stretch, but the seasons really don't compare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Factor in the 42.2 innings and 5 ER of playoff pitching please.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

k since I'm procrastinating, and BP has already done all of this work...

here are the top seasons I could find, in terms of translated pitching stats, which adjusts for the things I mentioned above.

"Converts all pitching statistics into a standard context. Pitchers are translated to a league where the top five pitchers (in innings) pitch an average of 275 innings. An average pitcher will have rates, per nine innings, of 9.00 hits, 1.00 home run, 3.00 walks, 6.00 strikeouts, and 4.50 earned runs."

Pedro 2000: 1.76 ERA
Maddux 1995: 2.09
Pedro 1999: 2.15
Gooden 1985: 2.19
Gibson 1968: 2.23
Koufax 1963: 2.37
Guidry 1978: 2.39

...

Hershiser 1988: 3.22

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Cleveland Indians

Starters match up well with the best:

SP Bob Feller
SP Addie Joss
SP Early Wynn
SP Bob Lemon

RP Bob Wickman
RP Doug Jones (or Jose Mesa?)

P.S: Good call to whoever corrected me on Phil Niekro with the Braves. I guess I might sub him for Glavine in a four man rotation, but it's close.

EDIT: Might have to replace Wickman with Mesa, as Wickman has been with a bunch of teams.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

I always throught Pedro 200 was universally considered the best season ever.

There is still argument about that?

And we are going to go as far to say that Orel had a better season?

...

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Ok, I'll do my Milwaukee Brewers. Not really much from which to choose.

SP: Teddy Higuera
SP: Ben Sheets
SP: Mike Caldwell
SP: Pete Vuckovich
SP: Jim Slaton

RP: Dan Plesac
RP: I have no clue...Bill Castro? Can I just put Rollie Fingers here? Please?

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

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[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers

1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Don Newcombe
4. Don Sutton

1. Eric Gagne
2. Takashi Saito

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would take Hershiser in his prime over Sutton. Shorter career, but IMHO much higher peak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Hershiser's 1988 season is the best single-season performance by a pitcher in my lifetime (38 years).

[/ QUOTE ]

after you adjust his #'s for pitching in a pitchers park, in the NL, and for defense, his 1988 would be Pedro's 8th or 9th best season

Pedro 2000 owns all

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the adjustment for carrying your team through the post season?
40 Innings of post-season pitching with an era of 1.06 makes Hershiser's 88 season nastier than anything Pedro ever did.

[/ QUOTE ]

nope

Pedro's 99 and 2000 are beyond insane

[/ QUOTE ]

Sidetracking the Hijack (I never claimed Hershiser > Pedro), do you guys agree with Hershiser > Sutton for starting Dodger pitcher?

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

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I should have mentioned that I'm not a stathead and I was just most impressed with the way Hershiser... um... didn't allow any runs in the second half of the season, playoff, and WS.

[/ QUOTE ]

in 2000, pitching 1/2 his games in a run scoring park, and against DH's, in an offense happy league, Pedro allowed 42 runs in 217 innings.

in 1988, pitching 1/2 his games in a pitchers park, and against pitchers, Orel allowed 67 in 267 innings. so he threw 50 more innings and allowed 25 more runs.

Orel had a ridiculous stretch, but the seasons really don't compare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Factor in the 42.2 innings and 5 ER of playoff pitching please.

[/ QUOTE ]

add that in, and Pedro's R/IP is still lower. and that's still before adjusting for league, park, etc.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

Hershisher and Sutton had pretty close peak years

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should have mentioned that I'm not a stathead and I was just most impressed with the way Hershiser... um... didn't allow any runs in the second half of the season, playoff, and WS.

[/ QUOTE ]

in 2000, pitching 1/2 his games in a run scoring park, and against DH's, in an offense happy league, Pedro allowed 42 runs in 217 innings.

in 1988, pitching 1/2 his games in a pitchers park, and against pitchers, Orel allowed 67 in 267 innings. so he threw 50 more innings and allowed 25 more runs.

Orel had a ridiculous stretch, but the seasons really don't compare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Factor in the 42.2 innings and 5 ER of playoff pitching please.

[/ QUOTE ]

add that in, and Pedro's R/IP is still lower. and that's still before adjusting for league, park, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are basing things on a per inning basis. Orel pitched over 90 more innings in 88 than Pedro in 00.

Re: All-Time Pitching Rotation - By Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should have mentioned that I'm not a stathead and I was just most impressed with the way Hershiser... um... didn't allow any runs in the second half of the season, playoff, and WS.

[/ QUOTE ]

in 2000, pitching 1/2 his games in a run scoring park, and against DH's, in an offense happy league, Pedro allowed 42 runs in 217 innings.

in 1988, pitching 1/2 his games in a pitchers park, and against pitchers, Orel allowed 67 in 267 innings. so he threw 50 more innings and allowed 25 more runs.

Orel had a ridiculous stretch, but the seasons really don't compare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Factor in the 42.2 innings and 5 ER of playoff pitching please.

[/ QUOTE ]

add that in, and Pedro's R/IP is still lower. and that's still before adjusting for league, park, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are basing things on a per inning basis. Orel pitched over 90 more innings in 88 than Pedro in 00.

[/ QUOTE ]

but 42 of them were in the playoffs, which Pedro's team didn't make that year.

so can I add Pedro's 1999 playoffs to create clutch pitching points?

he threw 17 innings against a ridiculous Indians offense and a great Yankees offense, allowed 0 runs. he struck out 23 and allowed 5 hits. and he was hurt.

if this was 2000 Pedro he would have allowed negative runs.