\"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Are there any? VPIP, PRF, etc?

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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Are there any? VPIP, PRF, etc?

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Tight players generally have 35%ish vpip's, LAGs have about 40%+, Phil Ivey has a 60% vpip and all can be profitable. I think its much more telling to look at how often people 3-bet but the point is there is no standard.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Yeah...I think that's why these games can be so profitable. I guess the lack of a starting hand chart is one of those reasons.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Hu play IMO is more player dependant than hand dependant. thats where the post flop play comes into effect. i dont think you can follow a starting hand chart in HU play. maybe in lower blind levels, but you have to adapt your game more than once in a match with a decent player.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Meh, I will argue until I'm blue in the face that 40%+ is LAG. 35% VPIP is downright nittish.

I play 47/36.

My IP raising range is pretty big. My OOP calling range is fairly small.

EDIT: I completely agree that it's really hard to quantify playstyles HU.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

im 40/35 i think

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

47/36 is a pretty loose style, this may have contributed to the fact you had a 20 buyin downswing (I by no means mean this as an insult, Im not commenting on your skill merely an effect of your style) TAGgier styles have less variance and can make just as much (maybe somewhat less) but with tons less variance which makes them very viable.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

No insult taken.

My downswing was expressly the result of post flop plays, specifically bluffs. I am still playing a similar style pre-flop (slightly tighter OOP) and it has been pretty smooth sailing. One 5 BI downer due to bad play.

Lots of money in c-betting.

EDIT: To be clear, I changed my post flop playstyle pretty significantly.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

LJ,

In general, what major adjustments did you make to your postflop play?

OP,

For my preflop I am around 50/32, but I am trying to raise more and call less. 45/35 would be sweet. Also, this is very opponent dependent. I think some of my higher VPIP is due to opponents who don't correctly punish limps.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Yeah, VPIP/PFR is opponent and stack dependent imo. The deeper we are, the wider my ranges become. 3-4+ BI deep and I call almost all 3bets.

Honestly, I pretty much stopped bluffing. I would bluff for my entire stack, which is a terrible way to play. Though my reads would be correct, SSHUNL players love to stack off very light. The easy way to combat this is to punish them with big hands and it works very well with very little variance. Of course, I CR air every once in a while to keep them guessing, and firing multiple barrels is totally acceptable. CRing AI based on a read is more or less out of my game (with few exceptions, see my thread on hands I butchered).

I am a pretty strong hand reader, so lots of my profit comes from making pretty crazy calls. So I figured that, and playing my large hands well, is enough to keep me at 8+ PTBB/100 at my stakes. So far, so good.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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The easy way to combat this is to punish them with big hands and it works very well with very little variance.

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Completely 100% agree but I think the fact that you call lots of 3bets is keeping you from making a lot higher BB/100. I think a big part of playing HU cash is not just playing a winning style but playing a winning style with the lowest variance.
EDIT: I wrote that in a pretty confusing way, two separate thoughts. I think low variance style is important, call less 3bets, I also remember this from when we played although you admitted you were drunk so I wont read too much into it.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

I have been calling less 3bets, even IP.

When we played I had a crazy crazy style that involved a lot of floating and extremely high variance. I still wish I had called with my 53o on the T 9 5 board, where you bluffed AI with AJ =P.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

The 53o was in a 3-bet pot wasnt it? I do remember you floating a lot (75o comes to mind). I also remember myself playing like crap, but it was fun [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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im 40/35 i think

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LOL i just checked im 52/42 over 10k hands(all i played at 50c/1)

I agree with that 35% is NITYNESS HU defo how do these players win because HU is all about observations IMO and i would sure notice all im winning is the blinds then all of a sudden they come alive with pounding 3bets [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Oh I actually remember some more stuff about the 53o hand, I looked at it a lot the next couple days and I thought it was really interesting because I thought you should have called with the pair of 5's as often as you should have called with something like JT which struck me as particularly interesting, I basically merged my range to like overpairs,sets,T9 and bluffs which is obviously pretty bad given how often bluffs are a part of my range there.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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im 40/35 i think

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LOL i just checked im 52/42 over 10k hands(all i played at 50c/1)

I agree with that 35% is NITYNESS HU defo how do these players win because HU is all about observations IMO and i would sure notice all im winning is the blinds then all of a sudden they come alive with pounding 3bets [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Nitty isnt necessarily a bad thing HU, having a tighter image is generally going to be the most profitable image IMO.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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Oh I actually remember some more stuff about the 53o hand, I looked at it a lot the next couple days and I thought it was really interesting because I thought you should have called with the pair of 5's as often as you should have called with something like JT which struck me as particularly interesting, I basically merged my range to like overpairs,sets,T9 and bluffs which is obviously pretty bad given how often bluffs are a part of my range there.

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Yeah lol, I tanked almost the entire time. I even told you that I was pretty sure my 5's were good.

I highly doubt I called a 3bet with 53o. Now 53s sounds like the old me =).

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

From memory it was you raised I 3bet you called, you called the cbet I CRAI on the turn no?

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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im 40/35 i think

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LOL i just checked im 52/42 over 10k hands(all i played at 50c/1)



Who said nittyness was bad?No not me sir you can all play how you want.Everyone makes adjustents to suit their oppenants anyway.

I agree with that 35% is NITYNESS HU defo how do these players win because HU is all about observations IMO and i would sure notice all im winning is the blinds then all of a sudden they come alive with pounding 3bets [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Nitty isnt necessarily a bad thing HU, having a tighter image is generally going to be the most profitable image IMO.

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Did i say it was bad?You can all play how you want doesnt really matter all good players make adjustments to suit oppenants anyways

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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From memory it was you raised I 3bet you called, you called the cbet I CRAI on the turn no?

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Either your CRAI on the turn, or just pushed turn... memory is leaning towards the former. I'll post HH when I get home. Definitely a fun hand... and interesting, unless I did call a 3bet with 53o.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

I'm 40.5/32 over my 34k hands. But I've opened up my 3betting range a bit more lately so we'll see how I end up. Also I'm gay and suck

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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im 40/35 i think

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LOL i just checked im 52/42 over 10k hands(all i played at 50c/1)

I agree with that 35% is NITYNESS HU defo how do these players win because HU is all about observations IMO and i would sure notice all im winning is the blinds then all of a sudden they come alive with pounding 3bets [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Nitty isnt necessarily a bad thing HU, having a tighter image is generally going to be the most profitable image IMO.

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case and point:

I couldn't find an open table at $100 last night, so I sit at $200. Papa_Chippi sits down. As some of you may remember, I destroy him. We used to have LAGfights... bet, 3bet, call, c-bet, push AI...

He sits down and I'm playing super super tight. Probably 38/25 or so. I ask why he wants to play me (given he's seen the 2+2 thread where I share that I've won more money off him than anyone) and he says "because you're a nit"... which makes no sense, but whatever.

Anyway, I stacked him within the first 10 hands and he FINALLY broke. A hand with him generally involves an AI at some point if you see a flop, he is THAT aggro.

So finally, he won't double barrel turn if I call his flop c-bet (which he would almost always do). Granted, I didn't do it more than once or twice in the 150-200 hands we played, but I floated him with complete air in 3bet pots (while IP) and bet out half pot on the turn when he checked. He folded both times which was wildly profitable, probably half a buy-in, between the two. This was all because I had an extremely nitty image.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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im 40/35 i think

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LOL i just checked im 52/42 over 10k hands(all i played at 50c/1)

I agree with that 35% is NITYNESS HU defo how do these players win because HU is all about observations IMO and i would sure notice all im winning is the blinds then all of a sudden they come alive with pounding 3bets [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Nitty isnt necessarily a bad thing HU, having a tighter image is generally going to be the most profitable image IMO.

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case and point:

I couldn't find an open table at $100 last night, so I sit at $200. Papa_Chippi sits down. As some of you may remember, I destroy him. We used to have LAGfights... bet, 3bet, call, c-bet, push AI...

He sits down and I'm playing super super tight. Probably 38/25 or so. I ask why he wants to play me (given he's seen the 2+2 thread where I share that I've won more money off him than anyone) and he says "because you're a nit"... which makes no sense, but whatever.

Anyway, I stacked him within the first 10 hands and he FINALLY broke. A hand with him generally involves an AI at some point if you see a flop, he is THAT aggro.

So finally, he won't double barrel turn if I call his flop c-bet (which he would almost always do). Granted, I didn't do it more than once or twice in the 150-200 hands we played, but I floated him with complete air in 3bet pots (while IP) and bet out half pot on the turn when he checked. He folded both times which was wildly profitable, probably half a buy-in, between the two. This was all because I had an extremely nitty image.

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LOL...this is pretty funny LJ

There are not many of these players around...i run at 52/42 but i would like to think i do it with a little class...

I think i played this player at FT $100nl6max once he isn't very good at that game either [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

I am not far off from 52/42 normally, but what makes him bat [censored] crazy is his 3bet range. It's ginormous. He rarely, if ever, folds a button. I'd say he's probably closer to 60/50.

EDIT: And the greatest thing, is I can tell him that I floated him with air in those spots and there's nothing he can do about it... since it was about 85/15, have a hand/floating with air. So if he wants to gamble and push flop when he thinks I'm floating, he's going to get snapped hardcore.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Yep good strat to adopt against these types

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

My hand with cwar, with chat. And yes, I called a 3bet with 53o. Wow.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.50/$1 Blinds
2 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

Hero (BB): $426.35
SB: $128.95.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $11.00</font>, Hero calls $8.00

Flop: ($22) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $11.00</font>, Hero calls $11.00

Turn: ($44) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $35.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises all-in to $106.95</font>,

LJJones: haha
LJJones: I have a pair of 5's
LJJones: I'm like 75% sure they are good
LJJones has 15 seconds left to act
LJJones: lololol
LJJones folds

Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $71.95 returned to SB

Pot Size: $114.00 ($0.50 Rake)

EDITED: cwar's stack got mangled, had to enter it manually

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

The term "Nit" definitely has negative implications, generally your leaving some kind of value on the table or dont have any gamble in you etc.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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My hand with cwar, with chat. And yes, I called a 3bet with 53o. Wow.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.50/$1 Blinds
2 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

Hero (BB): $426.35
SB: $128.95.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $11.00</font>, Hero calls $8.00

Flop: ($22) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $11.00</font>, Hero calls $11.00

Turn: ($44) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $35.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises all-in to $106.95</font>,

LJJones: haha
LJJones: I have a pair of 5's
LJJones: I'm like 75% sure they are good
LJJones has 15 seconds left to act
LJJones: lololol
LJJones folds

Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $71.95 returned to SB

Pot Size: $114.00 ($0.50 Rake)

EDITED: cwar's stack got mangled, had to enter it manually

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I have a badass memory.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Haha me too. I recalled that hand from memory at work almost perfectly (well, flop and all).

Btw all,

cwar showed AJo.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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Haha me too. I recalled that hand from memory at work almost perfectly (well, flop and all).

Btw all,

cwar showed AJo. Because he is a fish.

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FYP

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Cwar seems to be trying to build up this image of 3-betting PF with raggy cards and coming over the top of people on scary ass flops.

I, for one, will not fall for this.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

I almost edited to say,
cwar showed AJo, for a well-executed bluff.

Given my stack and your 3-betting pattern I am going to promote my 3-bet call from projectile vomit to terrible.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

Im actually curious MLJ, would you have called here with JT?

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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Im actually curious MLJ, would you have called here with JT?

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Dude, I wasn't lying that I thought my 5 was good. I would have called with JT.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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Im actually curious MLJ, would you have called here with JT?

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Dude, I wasn't lying that I thought my 5 was good. I would have called with JT.

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Thats not the point, given my range I think 53 is a better hand than JT in this spot DUCY?

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

It's true. My fear in spots like that is that you turned a hand that beats me into a bluff. If that fear is not there, I call.

To be honest, my recall is good as far as flops, holdings etc, but it's not so hot with remembering the tempo of the game at the time which was obviously what lead me to almost call with bottom pair, 3 kicker.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

More valuable was an exageration but just about equal in value in my eyes.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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Im actually curious MLJ, would you have called here with JT?

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Dude, I wasn't lying that I thought my 5 was good. I would have called with JT.

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Thats not the point, given my range I think 53 is a better hand than JT in this spot DUCY?

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I dunno, do the times you have hands like AT, KT, QT, make up for the times you show up here with QJ, KJ or AJ when your kicker pairing does you nothing?

Though your range is obviously very skewed towards higher cards meaning odds are an out or four are taken out of a JT type holding, I think it might hurt your equity moreso than his (because obviously with either of those hands he's basically saying you bluff x amount of time and i need x to call and in your bluff hands he's going to dramatically improve if he kills your kicker whereas if he's behind he's not going to be that much further behind if you've taken his 2 other tens out of play..)

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

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It's true. My fear in spots like that is that you turned a hand that beats me into a bluff. If that fear is not there, I call.

To be honest, my recall is good as far as flops, holdings etc, but it's not so hot with remembering the tempo of the game at the time which was obviously what lead me to almost call with bottom pair, 3 kicker.

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Yeah I agree I picked up on this after the fact as well, but given Im a rational 2p2er on this board there is almost no better hand I can be turning into a bluff besides A9/98 and those arent super likely or logical.

Re: \"standard\" stats for HU NL Cash Games
 

I have no idea what you were saying ChiRy, I agree that JT is more valuable but only because he will chop with JT and it reduces the chances of me having Tx (where x is A through 9) which means I have more bluffs in my range.