When do or should customs trump law?
 

A story I saw at yahoo.com reminded me of an issue that is very hard to handle without being accused of some sort of "ism" -- what do you do when people's customs and beliefs clash with the law of their country?

This can be especially tricky when the alleged "perp" is from another country, and it could at least be thrown out there that maybe they didn't know some of the laws they're being judged under. Tricky at best, and not necessarily relevant, because ignorance is commonly held to be no excuse regarding law.

Examples I've read about:

1. Cambodian guys, 20's, given a German shepherd puppy as a present by a neighbor. They cave in its head and eat it. Against American law.

2. Koreans in L.A. think a woman being listless and unhappy, and not particularly respectful of her husband, means demonic infestation. They subject her to a harrowing weekend of shouting, rolling her up in sheets, sitting and standing on her chest, finally suffocating her by having multiple members of the husband's family standing on her chest in an attempt to drive out the demons. This breaks any number of American laws.

3. Hmongs in California have a big problem with this type of thing: 20-ish Hmong man decides he wants to marry a 14-year-old Hmong girl. So in keeping with tradition, he kidnaps her, against her will, and rapes her and keeps her locked up to make her his wife. Against American law, clearly.

Results: 1. Dog boys not charged; 2. minor sentences for the religious chest stompers; 3. No charges are brought against kidnapping rapist.

And now for the yahoo story:

Female circumcision on the rise in Britain

Europe has had to deal with Muslims with the veil problem, as have New York cops with Orthodox Jewish females, who are not allowed to touch tickets the officers give them, don't want to be photographed for licenses, etc.

How fair do you think it is that laws be bent or changed based on the nationalities, race, or ethnicity of the person they are being applied to, and how serious a problem do you think this is here and will become, here in America and elsewhere?

Or just any part of that ...

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

As a first approximation, I'm much more willing to be lenient and understanding with traditions and religious customs that don't harm people. I can understand killing the dog, and I'd be willing to negotiate with Orthodox Jewish leaders to come up with an acceptable solution for giving the Jewish females tickets. I'm not familiar enough with the Jewish laws on this to suggest one, though, or to even really know what the law is. When it comes to the kidnapping racist, I think he should go to prison.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

I know this will sound trollish, but the older I get the more disgusted I become at how political correctness is used as a defense by those who either break the law or decide the law should not apply to them.

If raping and killing women is allowed in your homeland, then move back there to do it. If you do not need a picture driver's license to drive in your homeland, then move back there if you wish to drive a motor vehicle.

Most basic laws are not hard to follow. I base this statement on the fact that most everyone has no problem following them on a daily basis.

As for the OP, killing the dog is sad, but I can't see more than a fine or warning being necessary. As for the exorcists, if they did this without the victim's consent, then manslaughter should be the charge. The guy who kidnapped the 14 year old should be sent to prison for many, many years.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

The mutalation has always disturbed me. When we invaded Iraq for freeing the oppressed. I told many people that women were treated with more respect their than many other countries.

As for the rest. Well, if I throw a candy wrapper on the ground in Singapore, I am going to jail. If I carry a half ounce of marijuana in China, I am going to jail. If I give a thumbs up to a Mid Easterner, I can expect to get thumped in the head.

I don't even live in these countries, but I do know some of the laws. Yes, even until 50 years ago, "human rights" in America did not neccesarily include women and minorities. But it is logical that when you see it on the news that such and such went to prison for abducting/ beating/ killing, then the law is pretty much in your face. I don't buy the ignorance excuse.

As for the Jewish women. I would ask them if they prefer it that we all live like we live in Isreal and beat them whenever we please, and not allow them to sing, etc....

You can't have it both ways.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

jesus christ.

i think all of them should've been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

when you move to another country you accept its laws. Period.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

It's not unreasonable to expect someone to be aware of the laws of the country they are visiting or residing in. Ignorance of the law has never been a viable defense, nor should it be. If you choose the US or any country for that matter as your residence, you're required to follow the rules. Justice should be color/gender/religious persuasion blind, and delivered equally to all.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

To a degree, though, Dom, it's not just their old laws in conflict with ours. It's our own laws in conflict with each other. Our first amendment guarantees freedom of religion, so how that resolves with religions whose practices are contrary to our other laws is not always clear.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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The mutalation has always disturbed me. When we invaded Iraq for freeing the oppressed. I told many people that women were treated with more respect their than many other countries.

As for the rest. Well, if I throw a candy wrapper on the ground in Singapore, I am going to jail. If I carry a half ounce of marijuana in China, I am going to jail. If I give a thumbs up to a Mid Easterner, I can expect to get thumped in the head.

I don't even live in these countries, but I do know some of the laws. Yes, even until 50 years ago, "human rights" in America did not neccesarily include women and minorities. But it is logical that when you see it on the news that such and such went to prison for abducting/ beating/ killing, then the law is pretty much in your face. I don't buy the ignorance excuse.

As for the Jewish women. I would ask them if they prefer it that we all live like we live in Isreal and beat them whenever we please, and not allow them to sing, etc....

You can't have it both ways.

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What exactly are you talking about?

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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As for the Jewish women. I would ask them if they prefer it that we all live like we live in Isreal and beat them whenever we please, and not allow them to sing, etc....

You can't have it both ways.

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What exactly are you talking about?

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You mean you can't? I'll have to find somewhere else to take the girlfriend on holiday. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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To a degree, though, Dom, it's not just their old laws in conflict with ours. It's our own laws in conflict with each other. Our first amendment guarantees freedom of religion, so how that resolves with religions whose practices are contrary to our other laws is not always clear.

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It seems pretty clear that all the amendments that guarantee personal freedom - of religion, speech, etc. - are limited to the extent that your right to freedom ends when your actions harm others. You can't publish disparaging lies about a person without being charged with slander, and you can't become a serial killer because killing people makes you happy and you have the freedom to persue your own happiness. The defense of "in my religion, it is ok to kill people for these reasons" is no more valid than a defense of "I personally decided it's ok to kill these people, don't worry about it".

I don't buy the ignorance thing either.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

AAG,

I agree 100%. This is why I'd allow people to eat the dog but not to kidnap and rape 14yo girls.

Also, I don't think I've seen you around before, so welcome to the Lounge [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

Okay, my Israel statment must be wrong. I live near a large orthodox Jewish community. I see the women have to do what any male tells them to do, even if it is the mother and the child is 10 years old. I also see them with bruises on their face. I apologize if I have corralled Israelis with the wrong people.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

3. Hmongs in California have a big problem with this type of thing: 20-ish Hmong man decides he wants to marry a 14-year-old Hmong girl. So in keeping with tradition, he kidnaps her, against her will, and rapes her and keeps her locked up to make her his wife. Against American law, clearly

Wait, so this is wrong? There go my hopes for an autumn wedding.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

Wherever Americans are, their customs are surely the ones that are wrong and intolerant. If people with crazy habits visit or live in our country, it is we who should be tolerant and understanding, and if we aren't, we're xenophobic racists. On the other hand, if we as Americans visit another country and engage in our usual behavior, offending local sensibilities, it is we Americans who are being ignoranant and racist when we don't pay proper heed to local customs.

It's simple, really. American = bad. Foreigner = good. Americans should be tolerant, foreigners should be authentic. Anyone American who disagrees should be stoned to death.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

well all you white americans are really European at heart, so blame us guys :P

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

We love you British. You're like the Americans that are more convenient for terrorists. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

I'm pretty sure we'll have to do away with the freedom of religion thing at some point or other. Then the problem will be solved.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

blarg,

i dont know about the dogs head, but the other things would be illegal in their respective countries so calling it "their culture" seems pretty silly. i am definitely against female gentil mutilation.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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Wherever Americans are, their customs are surely the ones that are wrong and intolerant. If people with crazy habits visit or live in our country, it is we who should be tolerant and understanding, and if we aren't, we're xenophobic racists. On the other hand, if we as Americans visit another country and engage in our usual behavior, offending local sensibilities, it is we Americans who are being ignoranant and racist when we don't pay proper heed to local customs.

It's simple, really. American = bad. Foreigner = good. Americans should be tolerant, foreigners should be authentic. Anyone American who disagrees should be stoned to death.

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are you auditioning to be rush limbaugh or something? this is retarded.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wherever Americans are, their customs are surely the ones that are wrong and intolerant. If people with crazy habits visit or live in our country, it is we who should be tolerant and understanding, and if we aren't, we're xenophobic racists. On the other hand, if we as Americans visit another country and engage in our usual behavior, offending local sensibilities, it is we Americans who are being ignoranant and racist when we don't pay proper heed to local customs.

It's simple, really. American = bad. Foreigner = good. Americans should be tolerant, foreigners should be authentic. Anyone American who disagrees should be stoned to death.

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are you auditioning to be rush limbaugh or something? this is retarded.

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Sounded pretty dead on to me.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

If someone is going to leave their country and start a life in the United States I don't think it is out of line to ask them to adopt the customs of the United States. Likewise if an American moves to another country I would expect them to adopt the customs of their new home.

How to do it isn't as easy, but bending over backwards to be tolerant of someone else's old customs without encouraging them to adopt new ones is probably not the best way to do it.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

[ QUOTE ]
blarg,

i dont know about the dogs head, but the other things would be illegal in their respective countries so calling it "their culture" seems pretty silly. i am definitely against female gentil mutilation.

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What is legal and what is cultural are not identical.

Female genital mutilation may or may not be illegal in the countries of origin, but it is absolutely the culture there.

I know forcing women to wear veils and cover their bodies from head to toe is legal in some countries, and I'm sure that is forced on women when they come to the U.S. against their will. I'd be surprised if beating your wife was not legally allowed in some of those countries, and I know that killing her for adultery or even rape is legal.

The kidnapping and rape of child "brides" is absolutely standard among the Hmong hill tribes in the hill country of their origin, because that's their culture. Whether it's legal or not, it's obviously "effectively" legal, with the law turning a blind eye.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3. Hmongs in California have a big problem with this type of thing: 20-ish Hmong man decides he wants to marry a 14-year-old Hmong girl. So in keeping with tradition, he kidnaps her, against her will, and rapes her and keeps her locked up to make her his wife. Against American law, clearly



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Wait a minute, this is 20-somethings????? That means that they have probably been raised in this country!!! WTF?

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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Wherever Americans are, their customs are surely the ones that are wrong and intolerant. If people with crazy habits visit or live in our country, it is we who should be tolerant and understanding, and if we aren't, we're xenophobic racists. On the other hand, if we as Americans visit another country and engage in our usual behavior, offending local sensibilities, it is we Americans who are being ignoranant and racist when we don't pay proper heed to local customs.

It's simple, really. American = bad. Foreigner = good. Americans should be tolerant, foreigners should be authentic. Anyone American who disagrees should be stoned to death.

[/ QUOTE ]
are you auditioning to be rush limbaugh or something? this is retarded.

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Yes, it is. It's also unfortunately true, especially among liberals, who never cease to find things to feel guilty about.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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Female genital mutilation may or may not be illegal in the countries of origin, but it is absolutely the culture there.

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Absolutely! As much as I feel, as many others, that the practice should be abolished I have encountered quite a few women that after there babies are born want the doctors to repair the circumcision.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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Female genital mutilation may or may not be illegal in the countries of origin, but it is absolutely the culture there.

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Absolutely! As much as I feel, as many others, that the practice should be abolished I have encountered quite a few women that after there babies are born want the doctors to repair the circumcision.

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What do you mean "repair" it? Do you actually see women who have had this type of procedure? I'm shocked. I would have thought it quite rare.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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Female genital mutilation may or may not be illegal in the countries of origin, but it is absolutely the culture there.

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Absolutely! As much as I feel, as many others, that the practice should be abolished I have encountered quite a few women that after there babies are born want the doctors to repair the circumcision.

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What do you mean "repair" it? Do you actually see women who have had this type of procedure? I'm shocked. I would have thought it quite rare.

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I see a large population of African women who have been circumcised, sorry for being blunt, and sewn closed for the most part.

After they have their babies they(some) want to be sewn back shut-to some extent.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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I see a large population of African women who have been circumcised, sorry for being blunt, and sewn closed for the most part.

After they have their babies they(some) want to be sewn back shut-to some extent.

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My mind is officially blown.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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Wherever Americans are, their customs are surely the ones that are wrong and intolerant. If people with crazy habits visit or live in our country, it is we who should be tolerant and understanding, and if we aren't, we're xenophobic racists. On the other hand, if we as Americans visit another country and engage in our usual behavior, offending local sensibilities, it is we Americans who are being ignoranant and racist when we don't pay proper heed to local customs.

It's simple, really. American = bad. Foreigner = good. Americans should be tolerant, foreigners should be authentic. Anyone American who disagrees should be stoned to death.

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are you auditioning to be rush limbaugh or something? this is retarded.

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Yes, it is. It's also unfortunately true, especially among liberals, who never cease to find things to feel guilty about.

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Why bring politics into this. Culturally, our country has turned a blind eye to the illegal goings on of foreigners.

Here in Los Angeles, it is surely illegal to sell unrefrigerated hot-dogs on the the street corner. It is illegal to not pay for work that has been done. It is illegal to build houses without permits, and also illegal to hire for less than minimum wage. It is also illegal to stand at McArhtur Park and buy and sell fake IDs. When I went to jail, I was in a cell with 50 mexicans who did not speak a word of english.

No, politics withstanding, it is the Republicans who want to keep them here. It is also the Democrats who don't want to spend more than 30 cents for an orange.

Get off the high horse and just keep the line simple. If you break a law, you need to be jailed and deported. You obviously have no respect for our country if you do these illegal things.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

This just in:

Liberian guy, I think they said in Georgia, has nine charges dismissed for repeated rape of his 7 year old female relative because the court took three years to find an interpreter in his language.

Oh, and -- the guy went to an English-speaking school in America, and he spoke to the investigators in English.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

WTF, what was the courts excuse? I get that it might be hard to find a translator, but given a 3yr time frame c'mon

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

This is bad. Liberians apparently speak perfect English, I get e-mails from them all time because my very rich uncle, the oil baron, died in a plane crash.

Also, a question about the original mutilation thing.

Why is the English having a hard time investigating this? Usually these girls are prepubescent. So, logic dictates that the parents took them to have this done.

I don't get it, some things are so simple that no one ever seems to get. Do I have Asperger's?

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

This is a a great thread...

I have always been on the "if they don't like the law here they can go back where they come from" side of things on this one, but where I differ from many others is that I think it is a two-way street.

A while back there was a big hubbub here about a female journalist who went to a country in the Middle East (I want to say Iran but I could be off by a few hundred miles in any direction) and she wrote critical pieces about the local government and got her ass thrown in prison for it. While in prison she was beaten, tortured, etc, and eventually died from a beating she was given.

Well, of course all these people were going on about how terrible this all was, and her husband and kids were in the papers decrying the injustice etc etc. I say she got what was coming to her. You don't go to a country like that one and write bad stuff about the government without expecting for the fecal matter to hit the fan over it anymore that you come to North America and expect to be able to set your wife on fire if she displeases you - neither one is acceptable in the country you are in...

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

When custom > law, you are no longer a free nation. You are a nation of zealotry and overgrown children. You are essentially a theocracy, with your god being the custom.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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This is a a great thread...

I have always been on the "if they don't like the law here they can go back where they come from" side of things on this one, but where I differ from many others is that I think it is a two-way street.

A while back there was a big hubbub here about a female journalist who went to a country in the Middle East (I want to say Iran but I could be off by a few hundred miles in any direction) and she wrote critical pieces about the local government and got her ass thrown in prison for it. While in prison she was beaten, tortured, etc, and eventually died from a beating she was given.

Well, of course all these people were going on about how terrible this all was, and her husband and kids were in the papers decrying the injustice etc etc. I say she got what was coming to her. You don't go to a country like that one and write bad stuff about the government without expecting for the fecal matter to hit the fan over it anymore that you come to North America and expect to be able to set your wife on fire if she displeases you - neither one is acceptable in the country you are in...

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you dont see a difference between the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a a great thread...

I have always been on the "if they don't like the law here they can go back where they come from" side of things on this one, but where I differ from many others is that I think it is a two-way street.

A while back there was a big hubbub here about a female journalist who went to a country in the Middle East (I want to say Iran but I could be off by a few hundred miles in any direction) and she wrote critical pieces about the local government and got her ass thrown in prison for it. While in prison she was beaten, tortured, etc, and eventually died from a beating she was given.

Well, of course all these people were going on about how terrible this all was, and her husband and kids were in the papers decrying the injustice etc etc. I say she got what was coming to her. You don't go to a country like that one and write bad stuff about the government without expecting for the fecal matter to hit the fan over it anymore that you come to North America and expect to be able to set your wife on fire if she displeases you - neither one is acceptable in the country you are in...

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You're an idiot.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

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you dont see a difference between the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Of course I see a difference between the two - I was using hyperbole to get my point across as the moron who replied below you apparently was unable to grasp.

I was merely pointing out the fact that people from North America seem to feel like they're entitled to the same rights and privileges when abroad as they are when they are at home, and I have no sympathy for the ones who find out the hard way that they are wrong.

If we expect immigrants to respect our laws when they come here we also need to respect their laws when we go over there - even if it goes against the grain of how we were raised to act at home...

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

lmcjaho, I got what you were saying. I'm a little confused by the responses that followed your post.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

Update on the multiple rapist guy. Turns out he not only raped his one underage relative, but also his one and a half year old relative too.

As to his English proficiency, he went through one of the top high schools in the area which requires four years of English to graduate. This guy completed that high school without even having to take ESL courses. They interviewed his next door neighbor at present, who says he speaks English fine.

The courts say they weren't able to find an interpreter for his home country language, "Livian" I think it's called, in 2 1/2 years. There are about 100,000 speakers of it in the world. A news crew says they found a guy willing to do it in about 15 minutes, and they put him on camera saying as a guest in this country, he would be happy to do anything the government asked of him. Which of course means he would have been willing to interpret. (Let's not forget the fact that the guy needs no interpreter.)

It was the court psychiatrist who said that the defendant needed an interpreter.

The prosecutor said that finding an interpreter was the court's responsibility, so the prosecution shouldn't have its case disallowed just because the court didn't do its job.

The judge said the defendant's right to a speedy trial was violated, but the news story didn't address whether she had denied or admitted that the court was the party responsible for the trial not being done with fair speed.

I hope this judge gets kicked off the bench.

And that this multiple child, multi-count rapist dies in a grease fire.

Re: When do or should customs trump law?
 

Well, here's a cultural problem from the point of view of a defense lawyer.

I've represented a number of people from Latin America, eastern Europe and countries that you might call "third world." In many of these places, there is nothing sinister about bribing public officials or other kinds of kickbacks; for that is simply the way things operate where they are from. And I find that people from such places are often genuinely surprised to find themselves arrested for conduct that is openly tolerated at their home countries.

A distinct problem is that these clients sometimes assume that their criminal cases here will be decided on the basis of politics and corruption. This is problematic for me just to the extent that it interferes with focusing on the issues that actually matter.

(Not that I'm saying that politics and corruption don't occasionally come into play here either.)