Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

I question the quality of this play. I figured weaker aces are a good portion of his range. And this was the outcome. Play it the same?

Texas Limit Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

the good ole' 35 eh? I'd muck to 3-bet.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

Donk/call river. His range is biased towards hands that beat you and complete bluffs when he bets in position here so a c/r is extremely marginal if not -EV.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

I would probably fold turn. I like your play though, and might have called turn too(during the actual play).

I think he must put you on a range of 77+, AK-A10, and call with something equal. He's not afraid of J nor A. But protecting his overcards on flop is more than likely too.

As played, bet river.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

Shoulden't we fold turn? We have just strong overcards and we dont have odds to call turn bet.

Its sort of hand where i dont know whe people sometimes call even they dont have enought pot odds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Are here any rules when call and when just do odds math when u HU?

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

AK could easily be good here, villian could be betting draw here.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

Villain might have a wide range of hands. Optimistically guessing you have 6 outs, so I would fold the turn here and just call the river.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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Villain might have a wide range of hands. Optimistically guessing you have 6 outs, so I would fold the turn here and just call the river.

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what makes you think the villian hit this flop?

folding the turn here heads up is asking to get run over.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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Shoulden't we fold turn? We have just strong overcards and we dont have odds to call turn bet.

Its sort of hand where i dont know whe people sometimes call even they dont have enought pot odds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Are here any rules when call and when just do odds math when u HU?

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i dont call because of pot odds.

i call because our hand is often best in this spot.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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Shoulden't we fold turn? We have just strong overcards and we dont have odds to call turn bet.

Its sort of hand where i dont know whe people sometimes call even they dont have enought pot odds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Are here any rules when call and when just do odds math when u HU?

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i dont call because of pot odds.

i call because our hand is often best in this spot.

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Did u call also river UI when comes non flush blank?

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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Shoulden't we fold turn? We have just strong overcards and we dont have odds to call turn bet.

Its sort of hand where i dont know whe people sometimes call even they dont have enought pot odds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Are here any rules when call and when just do odds math when u HU?

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i dont call because of pot odds.

i call because our hand is often best in this spot.

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Did u call also river UI when comes non flush blank?

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yes.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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Shoulden't we fold turn? We have just strong overcards and we dont have odds to call turn bet.

Its sort of hand where i dont know whe people sometimes call even they dont have enought pot odds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Are here any rules when call and when just do odds math when u HU?

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i dont call because of pot odds.

i call because our hand is often best in this spot.

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Thats right, in this games in a lot of cases.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

I just call the river the first time. The second river decision is closer to a fold than a call, but the pot is big. Tis why I just call the river bet.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

For those advocating folding the turn: in many micro games we see villains pumping straight and flush draws with insufficient odds on an assumption of drawing odds combined with semi-bluff fold equity. Or it could be a bluff-raise with overcards. Or it could be a smaller overpair. It is unlikely that the flop hit villain and even though the turn jack is more dangerous the bet will often be the second barrel of a bluff or semi-bluff and not necessarily a pair of jacks. AK is often good here and we do have six outs if it isn't.

I don't like the river c/r because it's too fancy and the ace will often scare a villain into checking behind. I prefer a bet/call line in case villain spiked something lucky. A river bet is for value because villian will have to call with an ace and a worse unpaired kicker.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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For those advocating folding the turn: in many micro games we see villains pumping straight and flush draws with insufficient odds on an assumption of drawing odds combined with semi-bluff fold equity. Or it could be a bluff-raise with overcards. Or it could be a smaller overpair. It is unlikely that the flop hit villain and even though the turn jack is more dangerous the bet will often be the second barrel of a bluff or semi-bluff and not necessarily a pair of jacks. AK is often good here and we do have six outs if it isn't.

I don't like the river c/r because it's too fancy and the ace will often scare a villain into checking behind. I prefer a bet/call line in case villain spiked something lucky. A river bet is for value because villian will have to call with an ace and a worse unpaired kicker.

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Nice explanation sensei !

BWT is the situation change when Q falls instead J falls at turn? still we wanna call turn ?

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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I just call the river the first time. The second river decision is closer to a fold than a call, but the pot is big. Tis why I just call the river bet.

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you check/call?

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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Donk/call river. His range is biased towards hands that beat you and complete bluffs when he bets in position here so a c/r is extremely marginal if not -EV.

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oink (et al),

this was my first thought as well, but if we donk, what is he raising with that we beat? some crazy AQ?

all,

folding the turn and c/ring the river both suck.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

Tyler, if he raises we're getting almost 10:1 on our call to beat AQ or tie with AK. There's also some metagame involved in not letting people see you folding big pots on the river for one bet. I do very much agree with your implied point that the river bluff-raise is a lot rarer than people think at the micros so you'll note I'm not factoring in a bluff as a reason to bet/call the river.

Re: Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How\'s that for unbiased?)
 

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BWT is the situation change when Q falls instead J falls at turn? still we wanna call turn ?

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The queen is a much scarier card and given the action I am far more likely to fold. That's because it's very logical for villain to cold-call and run a double-barreled bluff holding AQ when the jack falls. If a queen falls instead and the same action occurs I cannot envision a sensible bluff and reverse domination becomes far more likely.