CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

Can't find much details on whats going into Forest Lake, other than it is. Does anyone have more details?

Any idea on impact? Sampson told the racing commission that CP offered some early retirement packages in anticipation of lost revenue due to competition coming in. One of the commissioners wasnt very happy (you can find meeting notes online).

Good for players or will it kill games by splitting the fields?

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

I cant really imagine it mattering much. CP is always packed to the gills, and the games are so good, I think it could afford a little competition. It won't be good, of course, but it shouldn't hurt much.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

Is this the "North Metro Harness Initiative"? You'll have better luck looking for news related to Columbus township, not Forest Lake.

The latest news reports I saw said they've broken ground in January but no projected opening date yet. The Minnesota Racing Commission website doesn't have any more information.

The NMHI got some financing this April:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/bl...C381EC36F220%7D

Under the financing agreement, they need to complete construction by June 30, 2008 and operate the cardroom by July 1, 2008. http://www.secinfo.com/d11MXs.utR9.htm

Considering how full Canterbury usually is, I don't think this will seriously impact poker at CP, though racing dollars may be another matter. Canterbury is angling to get slots or expanded operations, I think.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I cant really imagine it mattering much. CP is always packed to the gills, and the games are so good, I think it could afford a little competition. It won't be good, of course, but it shouldn't hurt much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Canterbury is much less often packed these days, and on weeknights they rarely have all tables running anymore. Weekends are still busy, but not like 2 years ago when the lists could reach 50 names and take 2 hours. Last Saturday night at 11pm they had one or two open tables and the lists were either short or non-existent.

The change can't be good. Frankly, CP is already one of the best run rooms in the country and they have little room for improvement if they want to compete.

This having been said, I can think of three changes that would help:

1) Spread limit games.

2) Mixed games (okay, this probably wouldn't help much in competing, but I would like it, so I tossed it in).

3) Less stingy comps.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

I've really noticed the decrease in wait times over the past two years. Its odd because my perception of the parking is that the live racing is exceptionally strong this year but there seems to be less spillover into poker. Friday nights during live racing were always juicy with all kinds of dead money sitting down after 10.

They must notice too, because there is seems to be more promotions (largely bad beat jackpots boosters). I play on Thursdays and there seems to be a healthy interest in the sit-n-gos. I do think their low price point of $200 for real tournaments is over the threshold for a lot of players. Lots want to gain some live tournament experience but not at $200 a throw. They should be less interested in per table revenue on touraments and use them more to get fannies in the door as a loss leader.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]

1) Spread limit games.


[/ QUOTE ]

State-imposed $60 max bet == ultra lame spread-limit.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Mixed games (okay, this probably wouldn't help much in competing, but I would like it, so I tossed it in).


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like it too but their operating agreement with the state may prohibit running mix games or adding lowball games to the mix. My experience is that CP wants to protect the Omaha games and won't start anything that looks like it will draw too many people from those games. (Haven't been in a while, though, because the Stud/8 game hasn't been going.)

If they've got tables open on weekdays maybe we can get a SHOE game going; I'd show up. But is a mix really going to attract new players? (Well, me, I guess.)

[ QUOTE ]
3) Less stingy comps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is going to get people in the door; at best it might help maintain some regulars.

CP management's solution to their declining revenues (well, revenues growing at 1% instead of 20% last year) has been to lobby for slots, not more poker. I'm not hopeful.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I cant really imagine it mattering much. CP is always packed to the gills, and the games are so good, I think it could afford a little competition. It won't be good, of course, but it shouldn't hurt much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Canterbury is much less often packed these days, and on weeknights they rarely have all tables running anymore. Weekends are still busy, but not like 2 years ago when the lists could reach 50 names and take 2 hours. Last Saturday night at 11pm they had one or two open tables and the lists were either short or non-existent.

The change can't be good. Frankly, CP is already one of the best run rooms in the country and they have little room for improvement if they want to compete.

This having been said, I can think of three changes that would help:

1) Spread limit games.

2) Mixed games (okay, this probably wouldn't help much in competing, but I would like it, so I tossed it in).

3) Less stingy comps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Less stingy comps? They finally GOT comps!

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played a bit of the 5-30 spread limit game at Hinckley a few weeks ago. Good game, but I don't think that it played much differently than a fixed limit structure. There was no 5-60 game going and the 5-30 was shorthanded the whole evening. I think that NL is going to be the only thing that would create a big splash compared to the current structure. Spread limit with a 30 or 60 cap is just too much like 15/30 or 30/60 FL.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can think of three changes that would help:

1) Spread limit games.

2) Mixed games (okay, this probably wouldn't help much in competing, but I would like it, so I tossed it in).

3) Less stingy comps.

[/ QUOTE ]

4) Get Krispy Kreme back. That crap from Donut Connection sucks [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

5) And what's up with that cabby cashier at the Finish line [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

God I love Canterbury. As a guy who plays probably 95% NL, I would be opposed to Canterbury getting NL games.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

Probably the reason you love it is because it is a nice change from your 95% of the time no-limit games.
I agree I find those Callerbury games fun and profitable sometimes when I'm in the mood for it and the facilities and staff are excellent there. A lot of people probably dream of finding LHE games as loose as Callerbury but sometimes it just becomes a frustrating grind and bore to play the same way all of the time hoping to only hit cards and have them hold up at showdown.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Probably the reason you love it is because it is a nice change from your 95% of the time no-limit games.
I agree I find those Callerbury games fun and profitable sometimes when I'm in the mood for it and the facilities and staff are excellent there. A lot of people probably dream of finding LHE games as loose as Callerbury but sometimes it just becomes a frustrating grind and bore to play the same way all of the time hoping to only hit cards and have them hold up at showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I grew up in Minneapolis and learned how to play at CP, and my dad is a regular in the 30 there, so I've got a reasonable amount of experience there. Its the greatest action ever for limit, although I havent played in LA. I know a lot of people get frustrated by the insanity, but I couldn't possibly be happier than when I'm in that 8/16 game.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do think their low price point of $200 for real tournaments is over the threshold for a lot of players. Lots want to gain some live tournament experience but not at $200 a throw. They should be less interested in per table revenue on touraments and use them more to get fannies in the door as a loss leader.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% on the NL tournaments.
If you want to play in a better one go to GC Hinckley at 2PM on Saturdays. You get 10K chips and similiar structure to Callerbury's $230, 4K chip tourneys for only $170.

Hopefully the new Forest Lake Cardroom will have good tourneys and put pressure on Callerbury to change this.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you described sounds like the best place to play lhe in the country. I hope it lasts for you.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you described sounds like the best place to play lhe in the country. I hope it lasts for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

you clearly do not understand limit hold'em. and it appears you are not fond of dollars.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to play in a better one go to GC Hinckley at 2PM on Saturdays. You get 10K chips and similiar structure to Callerbury's $230, 4K chip tourneys for only $170.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] That's a wild tourny. Those country folk play it like its a one table SNG. If you aren't willing to call 2-3k in round 2 and higher, don't play. And if you hit the flop big, you can stack someone. It's like the Callerbury 8/16 with mega playchips.

And the great thing is you can show up at the last minute instead of two or so hours ahead like at CP on Wed.

Also, they are moving the poker room again soon. High stakes blackjack will go where poker is now.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

Canterbury's management does not want mixed games or no-limit games or spread-limit games. They fear that the live ones will go broke too fast, and they're probably right. They want limit hold'em and lots of it. They like spreading O/8 because it's an action game. Well, it's an action game in every room in the country except CP. Actually, the red-chip O/8 games usually have decent-to-great action, but that $4/8 game is death.

From what I understand, $6/12 stud/8 has been running on Fridays. It went last Friday, anyway.

I'm pretty sure that Canterbury goes to the legislature asking for more tables every year. They do it as part of their request for a racino, so the whole thing gets shot down.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully the new Forest Lake Cardroom will have good tourneys and put pressure on Callerbury to change this.

[/ QUOTE ]

GCH is starting to put on better tournies. They have a big one coming the first week of August and if it sells well, they'll have it quarterly (plus their weekly Tues, Wed and Saturday tournies).

I'm sure the new room will have good events too. So it won't matter if CP improves their tournies.

As it is CP has to get flyers of competition tournies from CP players bringing them in. So they'll either copy other room's or keep the same structures they have now.

I don't think CP would care if they lose all their tourny business. I know their dealers would be happy. And tourny players will go to the places that put on the best structures, so no special allegiance to CP there.

And if the new room has spread limit, CP players who want that will have a closer place than GCH to go to, so there will be some CP customer loss in that area too.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

There will be no impact unless they decide to spread spread-limit and then once everyone realizes how retarded that game is the cardroom will go under.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

Yep, all the Indian casinos with spread limit have gone under. And St. Croix never has any NL cash game players.

Good post [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
There will be no impact unless they decide to spread spread-limit and then once everyone realizes how retarded that game is the cardroom will go under.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found spread limit to be very interesting and profitable because people don't know how to adjust to it and they can't just automatically call max bets like they do at Callerbury.

You people that only play at Callerbury and know only how to play the Callerbury style (wait to hit big hands then bet it, no bluffs, etc...) need to open your minds and maybe except that some of these other local places can be good and offer a different, and in my opinion more challenging type of play than is found at Callerbury 2/4-8/16.

That is kind of the main point of this and my previous posts here. I still like to play at Callerbury once and while but I like to also play at other places with other styles as well.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 8/16 is full of cold-callers, but you are incorrect in saying that you can't make moves or bluff. Yes, the variance in that game is high, but with the proper adjustments the game is pure money.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

NL is a death blow. Sure, the games would be phenomenal for a few months, but then the fish lose it all and go away. One of the reasons CP is so good year after year is that limit poker allows bad players to experience some wins while they slowly bleed off their chips.

Selective harvesting of timber and quotas on fishing are both very good ideas for exactly the same reason that limit poker is superior, in the long run, to NL.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

you clearly do not understand limit hold'em. and it appears you are not fond of dollars.


[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, I get all long-winded, then find out the PBob has provided the correct answer much more concisely.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

Once again all. I undestand LHE pretty well. I have read SSHE 3 times and I have had many winning nights at 6/12 and 8/16.

I'm not saying that these games are bad. All I'm saying is that if you flop big hands, hit your big draws, and have your big pairs hold up you will have a great night, but if you miss big draws and get big pairs cracked constantly you will have a bad, frustrating night because from what I have seen you can't really bluff or make moves much in these Uber loose games you simply have to have the best hand at showdown most of the time.

I look forward to playing at the new place next year and seeing how the games develop there as well.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once again all. I undestand LHE pretty well. I have read SSHE 3 times and I have had many winning nights at 6/12 and 8/16.

I'm not saying that these games are bad. All I'm saying is that if you flop big hands, hit your big draws, and have your big pairs hold up you will have a great night, but if you miss big draws and get big pairs cracked constantly you will have a bad, frustrating night because from what I have seen you can't really bluff or make moves much in these Uber loose games you simply have to have the best hand at showdown most of the time.
I look forward to playing at the new place next year and seeing how the games develop there as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Wrong. </font>

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, all the Indian casinos with spread limit have gone under. And St. Croix never has any NL cash game players.



Good post [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You cant read. Never said anything about NL and none of those casinos are competing with Cbury. spreadlimit is there is out in the boonies and it is easily the dumbest poker game invented, Imagine playing limit and being allowed to bet bet 10 in a 15-30 game and that is spread limit. Genius. Also, I said that would be competition initially and being tongue in cheek in saying that it would go under after people realize that sl is a stupid game. Obv, people enjoy it for some reason, but it is a poor attempt to mirror NL in places where it is illegal, but it is not even close to NL.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

I've never actually played SL in a casino. I would expect there would be extra dollars to be made from people who don't adjust to the spread. Still, I'd rather play straight limit poker.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've never actually played SL in a casino. I would expect there would be extra dollars to be made from people who don't adjust to the spread. Still, I'd rather play straight limit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you make the correct analogy between games, say maybe compare 5-60 spread to 15/30 (I'm not sure this is correct, but just imagine 'whatever the correct analogy is') the spread limit games are almost certainly going to be more profitable. Its just one more aspect of the game where fish can make mistakes, and they tend to be very large mistakes, compared to the ones they make in fixed limit games. I agree, fundamentally spread limit games are silly and dumb but they are very profitable. They just don't play as big as you'd think.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that these games are bad. All I'm saying is that if you flop big hands, hit your big draws, and have your big pairs hold up you will have a great night, but if you miss big draws and get big pairs cracked constantly you will have a bad, frustrating night because from what I have seen you can't really bluff or make moves much in these Uber loose games you simply have to have the best hand at showdown most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty much correct but what you aren't getting is the skill involved in limit holdem which is primarily about making good value bets and catching bluffs and hand reading and making thin laydowns and putting people on hand ranges and bluffing with your missed draw when you think someone else has a better draw that would win at showdown and bluff raising rivers when you're against a tag who you know is capable of bet/folding. If you don't like that stuff don't play limit.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that these games are bad. All I'm saying is that if you flop big hands, hit your big draws, and have your big pairs hold up you will have a great night, but if you miss big draws and get big pairs cracked constantly you will have a bad, frustrating night because from what I have seen you can't really bluff or make moves much in these Uber loose games you simply have to have the best hand at showdown most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty much correct but what you aren't getting is the skill involved in limit holdem which is primarily about making good value bets and catching bluffs and hand reading and making thin laydowns and putting people on hand ranges and bluffing with your missed draw when you think someone else has a better draw that would win at showdown and bluff raising rivers when you're against a tag who you know is capable of bet/folding. If you don't like that stuff don't play limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent post and I agree that all of these skills are very important when playing limit hold em. The problem is that when you play at Callerbury you don't get to use a lot of these skills because you are always working with the assumption that 2 to 3 are going to call no matter what you do.

1)Value bets are the key. You basically keep betting when you think you have the best hand because they will chase. Then even when you aren't sure you have the best hand or a scare card comes you can still call most the time because some of these guys are betting with bottom pair or will represent whatever came. I have folded top pair at Canterbury many times only to cringe when I see the showdown. Then I remind myself where I am and don't make that mistake again.

1) Bluffing on the river - This would only work in very rare cases. Who really at Callerbury is going to fold for one bet on the river in a big pot with anything. Anyone who has read SSHE knows this one.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

true most of what I said only applies in the 15 or 30 game. honestly though I just get tired of people saying limit sucks, for the most part I enjoy limit much more than no limit (and I play both).

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
NL is a death blow. Sure, the games would be phenomenal for a few months, but then the fish lose it all and go away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. St. Croix and the Iowa casinos have shown that the fish "don't lose it all and go away" in NL cash games. in the midwest. If it can work in the boonies it can work in the Twin Cities.

Just because CP doesn't want it doesn't mean it won't work for the players.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the competition and have enjoyed playing in the other rooms MN and Western Wisconsin have to offer. I also think as players mature and learn more about the game they want more of a challege than the no fold em variety of poker that Callerbury provides.

I know you want to play against loose players who call with hopeless hands but the last few times I have played 6/12 and 8/16 at Callerbury the cold calling and calling down with hopeless hands has reached new extremes. Even if you start with or flop a good hand you have to outlast all the chasers. So you basically wait to flop good hands/draws and hope they outlast the chasers. No bluffing, no raising to protect your hand(they call 2 and 3 bets cold), just hit a good hand and hope it survives at showdown.

You can have good nights playing this way but you can also have incredibly bad, frustrating nights when you miss big draws, get your big pairs cracked repeatedly and such.
I have found I like the moves and excitement of spread limit and no limit more because you can actually make moves, bluff and if people want to call with bad hands and draws they will risk a large portion of their stack to do so.

So I hope the new place has spread limit and I wish we could get real no limit in this state.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 8/16 is full of cold-callers, but you are incorrect in saying that you can't make moves or bluff. Yes, the variance in that game is high, but with the proper adjustments the game is pure money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played many of the mid-stakes games in LV and LA and the 9/18 at Commerce is about the only game that can compare to the CP 8/16. It is like printing money.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that these games are bad. All I'm saying is that if you flop big hands, hit your big draws, and have your big pairs hold up you will have a great night, but if you miss big draws and get big pairs cracked constantly you will have a bad, frustrating night because from what I have seen you can't really bluff or make moves much in these Uber loose games you simply have to have the best hand at showdown most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty much correct but what you aren't getting is the skill involved in limit holdem which is primarily about making good value bets and catching bluffs and hand reading and making thin laydowns and putting people on hand ranges and bluffing with your missed draw when you think someone else has a better draw that would win at showdown and bluff raising rivers when you're against a tag who you know is capable of bet/folding. If you don't like that stuff don't play limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent post and I agree that all of these skills are very important when playing limit hold em. The problem is that when you play at Callerbury you don't get to use a lot of these skills because you are always working with the assumption that 2 to 3 are going to call no matter what you do.

1)Value bets are the key. You basically keep betting when you think you have the best hand because they will chase. Then even when you aren't sure you have the best hand or a scare card comes you can still call most the time because some of these guys are betting with bottom pair or will represent whatever came. I have folded top pair at Canterbury many times only to cringe when I see the showdown. Then I remind myself where I am and don't make that mistake again.

1) Bluffing on the river - This would only work in very rare cases. Who really at Callerbury is going to fold for one bet on the river in a big pot with anything. Anyone who has read SSHE knows this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was at Canterbury last Tues overnight and stated the $3/6 game at Canterbury is like the 0.02/0.04 cent games on Pokerstars but without the free booze [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

you both are correct, of course, but Vehn probably sees a few better players at the limits he plays then I see - but probably not many.

rb

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

The Running Aces Harness Park and Card Club should complete construction in the spring of 2008. Unless the law is changed before then, they will be required to hold a 50-day racing card prior to opening their card room. This racing schedule will be approved by the Minnesota Racing Commission in December.

As a result, I do not think the card room will actually open until mid to late summer 2008.

While I am not an expert on Minnesota games, I do not expect this card club to affect Canterbury in the least - the two clubs will be located about 50 miles apart and there is plenty of population to keep both clubs "happy".

I do have some influence in the new card club's operation and would welcome any suggestions to make your poker experience the best it can be. PM me.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

The best 2 things the new card club could do to compete would be to offer the rake that Cbury used to have as well as offer a 10/20 and 20/40 game.

Re: CP: Impact of card room going into Forest Lake????
 

[ QUOTE ]
The best 2 things the new card club could do to compete would be to offer the rake that Cbury used to have as well as offer a 10/20 and 20/40 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen. I would happily forfeit the MVP program for the old rake.

Is this actually going to be in Forest Lake?