Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

First question too vague. Voted no on the other two.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Gauging Ron Paul Support on the 2+2 Politics forum which is chock full of libertarians far greater than their proportion in the general public.

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FYT

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im trying to change the heading to gauging Ron Paul's support on 2+2 but am having trouble

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

I voted no, for the last two, but that's only because I live in Canada.

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Gauging Ron Paul Support on the 2+2 Politics forum which is chock full of libertarians far greater than their proportion in the general public.

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FYT

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Do you realize how popular libertarianism is becoming among college students and young people? They are disgusted with Bush and realize that the Democrats are a hopeless party of failure. When the election cycle hits its peak Paul is going to really make an impact nationwide.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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I voted no, for the last two, but that's only because I live in Canada.

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it wouldve been better for you to skip the question, but thats my fault for not detailing instructions.

Anyways, ive got a post for foreign nationals that support ron paul coming up so look out.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Gauging Ron Paul Support on the 2+2 Politics forum which is chock full of libertarians far greater than their proportion in the general public.

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FYT

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FWIW, I've noticed a lot of non-Politics members with Ron Paul avatars or similar support in their location. Still doesn't say much about his support overall.

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"Anyways, ive got a post for foreign nationals that support ron paul coming up so look out."

Hurray!

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Gauging Ron Paul Support on the 2+2 Politics forum which is chock full of libertarians far greater than their proportion in the general public.

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FYT

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Do you realize how popular libertarianism is becoming among college students and young people? They are disgusted with Bush and realize that the Democrats are a hopeless party of failure. When the election cycle hits its peak Paul is going to really make an impact nationwide.

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I've heard the exact same thing from libertarians every election cycle since I've been paying attention. Your cause won't get any more support than it did thirty years ago. I hope you're setting your bar for "impact nationwide" at about 2%.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Do you realize how popular libertarianism is becoming among college students and young people? They are disgusted with Bush and realize that the Democrats are a hopeless party of failure. When the election cycle hits its peak Paul is going to really make an impact nationwide.

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Is this based on anything besides anecdotal evidence? I'm sure less than 5% of college students would identify themselves as libertarian or equivalent.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

Look at the situation the two parties are in, it is much different that in previous elections. 8 years of bush have made the republicans pretty damn hard to support, and the democrats running are all marshmellows. As much as I dislike the viewpoint personally, libertarianism is becoming "cool" to support. I guess I don't understand the big picture of 20th century of american politics as well as you guys, what other libertarian failures would you compare Paul to? During the debates Paul is going to come off very well compared to everyone else because of young people's current attitudes. It's the same reason Obama got so much early support. How good a candidate he is was irrelevent, he got a lot of support because of people's dissatisfaction with bush. Paul will get a similar bonus. I have no illusions about what his chances are because of how our political and media structure is set up to prevent people like him from succeeding, but he is going to make big gains relative to where he is not and where other libertarians have been in the past.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Look at the situation the two parties are in, it is much different that in previous elections. 8 years of bush have made the republicans pretty damn hard to support, and the democrats running are all marshmellows. As much as I dislike the viewpoint personally, libertarianism is becoming "cool" to support. I guess I don't understand the big picture of 20th century of american politics as well as you guys, what other libertarian failures would you compare Paul to? During the debates Paul is going to come off very well compared to everyone else because of young people's current attitudes. It's the same reason Obama got so much early support. How good a candidate he is was irrelevent, he got a lot of support because of people's dissatisfaction with bush. Paul will get a similar bonus. I have no illusions about what his chances are because of how our political and media structure is set up to prevent people like him from succeeding, but he is going to make big gains relative to where he is not and where other libertarians have been in the past.

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IMO, the best chance for a major libertarian boost in public perception is a Shwarzenegger type candidate. Libertarian beliefs generally don't get much attention from the mainstream media. They need somebody very famous who will command media attention to advance this cause. In a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary. However, The way the MSM works, somebody like Ron Paul is not going to get much attention unless he pulls a shocker in an early primary/caucus state.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

This election is really no different than any of the others in terms of libertarian prospects. Just because the two parties are disliked (and political parties are generally disliked anyway) isn't going to drive people to support a philosophy that they think is much worse than two mediocre alternatives.

Ron Paul never polls higher than 2% in any national polling, and this is probably about where he will stay. And I guarantee than the Green Party candidate will poll much higher among college students than whoever the actual Libertarian Party puts up in the general election.

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You keep saying that this election cycle isn't going to be any different than the the last handful and that Paul won't do any better than the last group of libertarian prospects, but what previous libertarian candidates are you comparing him to?

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Look at the situation the two parties are in, it is much different that in previous elections. 8 years of bush have made the republicans pretty damn hard to support, and the democrats running are all marshmellows. As much as I dislike the viewpoint personally, libertarianism is becoming "cool" to support. I guess I don't understand the big picture of 20th century of american politics as well as you guys, what other libertarian failures would you compare Paul to? During the debates Paul is going to come off very well compared to everyone else because of young people's current attitudes. It's the same reason Obama got so much early support. How good a candidate he is was irrelevent, he got a lot of support because of people's dissatisfaction with bush. Paul will get a similar bonus. I have no illusions about what his chances are because of how our political and media structure is set up to prevent people like him from succeeding, but he is going to make big gains relative to where he is not and where other libertarians have been in the past.

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IMO, the best chance for a major libertarian boost in public perception is a Shwarzenegger type candidate. Libertarian beliefs generally don't get much attention from the mainstream media. They need somebody very famous who will command media attention to advance this cause. In a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary. However, The way the MSM works, somebody like Ron Paul is not going to get much attention unless he pulls a shocker in an early primary/caucus state.

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http://www.sptddog.com/sotp/clint13.gif

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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You keep saying that this election cycle isn't going to be any different than the the last handful and that Paul won't do any better than the last group of libertarian prospects, but what previous libertarian candidates are you comparing him to?

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All of them. Including Paul 20 years ago.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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You keep saying that this election cycle isn't going to be any different than the the last handful and that Paul won't do any better than the last group of libertarian prospects, but what previous libertarian candidates are you comparing him to?

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All of them. Including Paul 20 years ago.

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Who was the last equivalent version of Paul to fail? Apparently there are tons of similar failures so it should be easy to list one.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

I voted yes-no-no. I am more of a Conservative than a libertarian, and would prefer Romney or Giuliani over Paul, but Paul over any democrat.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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I voted yes-no-no. I am more of a Conservative than a libertarian, and would prefer Romney or Giuliani over Paul, but Paul over any democrat.

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Of course the two stalwarts of conservatism Giuliani and Romney.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

owsley,


There have been previous super solid libertarian candidates like Harry Browne for example.

The difference between then and now is mass communication (THE INTERNETS).

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

Browne got .4% and .5% of the vote in 96 and 00 respectively. Paul is polling at 2% (which will clearly go up as the cycle goes on and more people learn about him), so wouldn't that alone suggest that Paul can't be written off to the same fate as Browne? I have no illusions about what number of votes Paul will end up with, but looking at the bigger picture his candidacy will be a big improvement relative to past ones given the characteristics of this election. I am not saying there aren't a long list of past libertarian candidates who have failed but what I am saying is that it's inaccurate to lump Paul in with all of those guys, for reasons I listed above (and the interent of course, how could I forget the biggest one).

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Gauging Ron Paul Support on the 2+2 Politics forum which is chock full of libertarians far greater than their proportion in the general public.

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FYT

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Do you realize how popular libertarianism is becoming among college students and young people? They are disgusted with Bush and realize that the Democrats are a hopeless party of failure. When the election cycle hits its peak Paul is going to really make an impact nationwide.

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All these kids that realize Democrats are a hopeless party of failures certainly are giving alot of time and money to Obama.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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You keep saying that this election cycle isn't going to be any different than the the last handful and that Paul won't do any better than the last group of libertarian prospects, but what previous libertarian candidates are you comparing him to?

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All of them. Including Paul 20 years ago.

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Who was the last equivalent version of Paul to fail? Apparently there are tons of similar failures so it should be easy to list one.

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You mean specifically a libertarian running in the GOP primary? I don't know of any, because I don't know why a libertarian would think he has a chance this way. But all libertarian presidential candidates have basically been the same, and they all get basically the same votes.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

No, no, no.

That was fun.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

" I don't know of any, because I don't know why a libertarian would think he has a chance this way. "

Goldwater baby.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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You keep saying that this election cycle isn't going to be any different than the the last handful and that Paul won't do any better than the last group of libertarian prospects, but what previous libertarian candidates are you comparing him to?

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All of them. Including Paul 20 years ago.

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Who was the last equivalent version of Paul to fail? Apparently there are tons of similar failures so it should be easy to list one.

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You mean specifically a libertarian running in the GOP primary? I don't know of any, because I don't know why a libertarian would think he has a chance this way. But all libertarian presidential candidates have basically been the same, and they all get basically the same votes.

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Ronald Reagan?
Barry Goldwater?
Richard Nixon?

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Gauging Ron Paul Support on the 2+2 Politics forum which is chock full of libertarians far greater than their proportion in the general public.

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FYT

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Do you realize how popular libertarianism is becoming among college students and young people? They are disgusted with Bush and realize that the Democrats are a hopeless party of failure. When the election cycle hits its peak Paul is going to really make an impact nationwide.

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You're rapidly becoming my favorite Politics poster, sir.

Cody

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Do you realize how popular libertarianism is becoming among college students and young people? They are disgusted with Bush and realize that the Democrats are a hopeless party of failure. When the election cycle hits its peak Paul is going to really make an impact nationwide.

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You're rapidly becoming my favorite Politics poster, sir.

Cody

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Leveling?

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Do you realize how popular libertarianism is becoming among college students and young people? They are disgusted with Bush and realize that the Democrats are a hopeless party of failure. When the election cycle hits its peak Paul is going to really make an impact nationwide.

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You're rapidly becoming my favorite Politics poster, sir.

Cody

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Leveling?

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Yes and No,
If you search his stuff in the past few weeks including his post in the thread in ATF, he's very consistant, very firely, and very "AC has no holes, 100% great mega-cool awesome". Also the bit about how ACists and Statists are different was classic.

I like the action and the fire, so no, in terms of quality and interest not even close, but in terms of entertainment value, it's him and Niels on top. I suppose I see them much the same way they claim to see Jogger, all Point of view really.

Cody

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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You keep saying that this election cycle isn't going to be any different than the the last handful and that Paul won't do any better than the last group of libertarian prospects, but what previous libertarian candidates are you comparing him to?

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All of them. Including Paul 20 years ago.

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Who was the last equivalent version of Paul to fail? Apparently there are tons of similar failures so it should be easy to list one.

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You mean specifically a libertarian running in the GOP primary? I don't know of any, because I don't know why a libertarian would think he has a chance this way. But all libertarian presidential candidates have basically been the same, and they all get basically the same votes.

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Do you really not think that Paul is more popular than the libertarian candidates in 04, 00, and 96? Obviously its tough to compare them numerically but choosing to run for the republican nomination instead of under the libertarian party is a great idea. Myself and other posters have listed very valid reasons (none of which you have responded to) why he will have more success than previous libertarians.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

and refuting my claim that the republican party is very unpopular with young people right now by saying that "the two political parties are generally disliked anyway" is totally absurd. Yeah right, the level of dissatisfaction that 8 years of Bush has caused is just par for the course. That's insane.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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You keep saying that this election cycle isn't going to be any different than the the last handful and that Paul won't do any better than the last group of libertarian prospects, but what previous libertarian candidates are you comparing him to?

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All of them. Including Paul 20 years ago.

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Who was the last equivalent version of Paul to fail? Apparently there are tons of similar failures so it should be easy to list one.

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You mean specifically a libertarian running in the GOP primary? I don't know of any, because I don't know why a libertarian would think he has a chance this way. But all libertarian presidential candidates have basically been the same, and they all get basically the same votes.

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Ronald Reagan?
Barry Goldwater?
Richard Nixon?

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Barry Goldwater was privately a quasi-libertarian, but he campaigned in 1964 as a straight conservative. Can you cite an issue on which he campaigned on the side of the social libertarians?

As for Nixon and Reagan, LOL.

- Both presided over a huge increased in federal spending. Nixon created vast new regulatory agencies and implemented wage controls, nationwide speed limits,
- Both expanded the scope of government power by claiming expansive new executive branch privileges.
- Both were strongly for vigorous enforcement of drug laws: Nixon started the modern "war on drugs". Reagan expanded this, with "Just Say No", DARE, appointing the first "Drug Czar".
- Both nominated Supreme Court justices who seem to generally oppose a right to privacy.
- Both expanded the involvement of the US government in the affairs of foreign governments.

Honestly, except for trickle-down tax cuts for the wealthy (not offset by decreased spending) and some loosening of Nixon-era regulations under Reagan, I can't think of any issue on which either of these guys was libertarian.

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Well as Gary Arnold said "I agree with 80% of the things that Regan says and 20% of the things that Regan does"; so while Regan may not have acted like a Libertarian he certainly campaigned and pretended to be one. At one point he said, and I'm paraphrasing "the ideals of the libertarian and conservative party are essentially the same"

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Both nominated Supreme Court justices who seem to generally oppose a right to privacy.


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You might want to double check that one

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Do you really not think that Paul is more popular than the libertarian candidates in 04, 00, and 96? Obviously its tough to compare them numerically but choosing to run for the republican nomination instead of under the libertarian party is a great idea.

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I think running on the GOP side is the big thing here. That's what makes Paul so recognized. It isn't so much "Look at this great new Libertarian, Ron Paul" as it is "WOW, a disciplined Libertarian running for one of the main parties, I better pay attention to that."

I agree this is a great move on Paul's part (for him). But I think his relative popularity is a function of that move, and almost entirely that move. I don't see it as something that's gonna change much of anything for Libertarians.

Harry Brown may have only got 0.5% of the vote, but that's 0.5% more than Paul will get in the general election. If Harry Brown ran for the republican nomination, maybe he'd have been polling at 4 or 5% in July. Who knows. They're different things. So I really have no idea what you're trying to compare.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Both nominated Supreme Court justices who seem to generally oppose a right to privacy.


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You might want to double check that one

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Perhaps this is not contrary to the libertarian position, but I think it's pretty clear that at least Burger, Rehnquist, and Bork opposed finding a right to privacy in the constitution.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Well as Gary Arnold said "I agree with 80% of the things that Regan says and 20% of the things that Regan does"; so while Regan may not have acted like a Libertarian he certainly campaigned and pretended to be one. At one point he said, and I'm paraphrasing "the ideals of the libertarian and conservative party are essentially the same"

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OK, if libertarians are basically just supporters of Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon than I have completely misjudged what it means to be a libertarian.

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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No, no, no.

That was fun.

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[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Gauging Ron Paul Support
 

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Do you really not think that Paul is more popular than the libertarian candidates in 04, 00, and 96? Obviously its tough to compare them numerically but choosing to run for the republican nomination instead of under the libertarian party is a great idea.

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I think running on the GOP side is the big thing here. That's what makes Paul so recognized. It isn't so much "Look at this great new Libertarian, Ron Paul" as it is "WOW, a disciplined Libertarian running for one of the main parties, I better pay attention to that."

I agree this is a great move on Paul's part (for him). But I think his relative popularity is a function of that move, and almost entirely that move. I don't see it as something that's gonna change much of anything for Libertarians.

Harry Brown may have only got 0.5% of the vote, but that's 0.5% more than Paul will get in the general election. If Harry Brown ran for the republican nomination, maybe he'd have been polling at 4 or 5% in July. Who knows. They're different things. So I really have no idea what you're trying to compare.

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I'm not sure exactly how you pulled it off, but you managed to repeat everything that I said, quote it, and then disagree with me.