Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

In this interview :

http://www.pokerlistings.com/live-to...eos?episode=35

Barry claims that Ace On The River is the first poker strategy book written by a winning high-stakes professional player.

Most other books are written by people who won a tournament, or low limit players, and are mainly guesswork: people who never made much money at poker imagining what it might be like to be a professional player ... presenting strategies that are typically the opposite of what a player like Barry would advise.

What do people think ?

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

I think he forgot about Doyle...

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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I think he forgot about 2+2 ...

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Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

I think it is a stretch to call "Ace on the River" a strategy book.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Yea I've not read it but I understand it's mostly autobiographical.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

I think he's mostly right. But, I don't think it's at all a slight at Two Plus Two Publishing. 2+2 books make up a small % of the poker books on the market.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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2+2 books make up a small % of the poker books on the market.

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... and long may it remain that way. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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I think he's mostly right. But, I don't think it's at all a slight at Two Plus Two Publishing. 2+2 books make up a small % of the poker books on the market.

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I completely agree. If he didn't respect 2+2, he wouldn't (I assume) bother posting here.

As you said, 2+2 make up a small number of the total poker books available, and the majority of them are poor at best.

PJS

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Let's not pretend like 2+2 books are particularly hot either. There's a lot of marginal to bad material in them. Barry's right to be critical of poker books in general.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Poker is like sex, you can't learn it from books alone.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Go to borders and look at the books. I wouldn't spend money on them for my fireplace.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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Poker is like sex, you can't learn it from books alone.

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This is one of the worst analogies I've ever read.

If given the choice, I'd take just about any 2+2 book, SS2, some of Ciaffone's stuff, etc., over Ace on the River. But I do own AoTR and don't regret the purchase.

But then again, I guess I just named off books that were written by player/winners which I assume weren't the books he was talking about.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

I said it jokingly, I agree with you completely.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Man, I was hopin' that was a joke. You got me. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

He is essentially correct. The vast majority of poker books on the market are written by players who are not that successful

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

I think a few author's books were so bad (Hellmuth, Fischman, Cloutier) that they did it on purpose. They were trying to provide misinformation to the poker playing public in order to make the average player even easier to beat.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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I think it is a stretch to call "Ace on the River" a strategy book.

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I think it is a stretch to call "Ace on the River" a strategy book.

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I think it is a stretch to call "Ace on the River" a strategy book.

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Also, are poker books really written with the expressed purpose of someone being able to read it and then step into a high stakes poker game?

To write such a book would be ultra-retarded since the market is so tiny. And, according to Greenstein high stakes poker players don't read.

Face it people, Greenstein is just trolling when he says these things.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

I think that Barry has a very good game selection. That's one of the most important skills indeed.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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I think he's mostly right. But, I don't think it's at all a slight at Two Plus Two Publishing. 2+2 books make up a small % of the poker books on the market.

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Come on. It's all about 2+2. You should defend about it somehow, imo.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Or they wanted to make an extra income from books, using their fame to sell them, without giving away their secrets. Phil Helmuth and T.J. Cloutier are great players, it is fishy that their books are useless.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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Phil Helmuth and T.J. Cloutier are great players, it is fishy that their books are useless.


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It's possible they are like natural athletes who are very good at what they do, but don't really know how they do it, much less how to explain it to someone else.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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Barry claims that Ace On The River is the first poker strategy book written by a winning high-stakes professional player.

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He said "poker book" not "poker strategy book", didnt he?
I dont think Barry has ever claimed it to be a strategy book. Remember what the material started out as. It was supposed to be a section in SS2 that to complement the technical material, teaches you how to make money at poker.
There's a lot more to it than what to do with pocket 7's in the cut off seat. This book deals with that.
I loved it.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Barry saying he thinks something is "bad advice" is valid criticism, particularly if he points out why. Citing the "winning high stakes professional" thing is obtuse because:

a) high stakes players make up a minority of poker players, and are not the majority demographic of poker book consumers

b) proving someone a "winner" at any level is a fairly speculative task - futile too since the point of a poker book is to make the READER a winner

c) the best players often do not make the best teachers

I somehow doubt Barry would disagree with any of that though, and I'm sure him harping on the "high stakes" thing is just normal marketing shtick for his book.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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I think that Barry has a very good game selection. That's one of the most important skills indeed.

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Not much game selection at the limits he plays.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Hi Dynasty:

I don't completely agree. While there are many poker titles on the market, most of them have very small sales. So when Greenstein makes a carless statement like this, many people will think that he's talking about our books. Furthermore, if he was more familiar with the actual content of our books he would know that we have been very critical of weak-tight advice going all the way back to our original publications in 1987 and 1988.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Barry comments on 2+2 books himself here.

I read all the poker books I could find when I was in high school and college. I don't remember them helping. If 2+2 books existed at that time in my career, I'm sure they would have helped me.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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Barry comments on 2+2 books himself here.

I read all the poker books I could find when I was in high school and college. I don't remember them helping. If 2+2 books existed at that time in my career, I'm sure they would have helped me.


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I am sure there are people who have the same thoughts about ken warren [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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Hi Dynasty:

I don't completely agree. While there are many poker titles on the market, most of them have very small sales. So when Greenstein makes a carless statement like this, many people will think that he's talking about our books. Furthermore, if he was more familiar with the actual content of our books he would know that we have been very critical of weak-tight advice going all the way back to our original publications in 1987 and 1988.

Best wishes,
Mason

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Mason:

Careless - yes. Intended to be a slight on 2+2 - unlikely (its possible of course, but still unlikely). Barry's head seems to be in the clouds at times when there is a camera on, it sounds like a sound bite gone wrong. I'd venture to guess that he would clarify the statement if asked showing he had no ill will towards 2+2.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Barry Greenstein has said that he reads most of the books that come out. When he says in that interview that there are no poker books written by professional players, he is clearly stating his opinion on the authors of 2+2 books as well, because it's obvious that he is aware of the 2+2 books and their content.

But he gives another expression when he wrote the following on this forum: "I read all the poker books I could find when I was in high school and college. I don't remember them helping. If 2+2 books existed at that time in my career, I'm sure they would have helped me." On camera he wants to appear strong and give an expression that he is the best, which is good for his marketing in that circumstance. On this forum he has to appear humble for people to like him and buy his book. My conclusion is that Barry's intentions of his statements are only to sell more of his own books.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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Barry Greenstein has said that he reads most of the books that come out

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Source?

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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Source?

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"Most books are helpful if they are read at the right time in ones development. It isn't the right time for me at this point, but I try to read through the most popular titles anyway. I am they type of person who used to read math and computer science books leisurely, so poker books are not hard for me to get though, except for the boredom factor."

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...page=0&vc=1

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Thanks!

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

doyle is very good poker player

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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Barry Greenstein has said that he reads most of the books that come out. When he says in that interview that there are no poker books written by professional players, he is clearly stating his opinion on the authors of 2+2 books as well,



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I thought Barry was referring to books written by 'winning high stakes professionals or written by low limit players or had won a tournament '.

If so which of the 2+2 authors play in the games BG is referring to? and at what level do games qualify for the low limit / high stakes levels?


As a newcomer to 2+2 books, and the poker world in general, I always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that 2+2 authors inhabit games somewhere inbetween what BG is talking about, and therefore would be exempt from his criticism of poker books on this occasion.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Hi dirty banana2007:

While it's true that very few people play at the limits that Barry plays at, you may want to read this post from another thread where the same subject came up:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...ue#Post11087119

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Hi TT:

I'm sure there was no intention of a shot at us, but it can still have the same effect. We just happen to now be the dominate book publisher in this field. So when Barry implies that virtually all poker books contain weak-tigh advice people are going to naturally think he's talking about Two Plus Two, and the fact is, as you know, that our advice is very different from what he characterized poker books for containing.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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I think a few author's books were so bad (Hellmuth, Fischman, Cloutier) that they did it on purpose. They were trying to provide misinformation to the poker playing public in order to make the average player even easier to beat.

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they might well hold information back, but i can't see someone like hellmuth with his giant ego knowingly publish something that's wrong.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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I think that Barry has a very good game selection. That's one of the most important skills indeed.

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Not much game selection at the limits he plays.

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I thought the Big Game starts when there's a live one in the table. And it wouldn't be like Barry, Chip, Doyle, PA etc. were trying to find out which one of them is the best. Maybe I'm wrong, what would I know.

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

Interesting topic specially the barry reply about what to read in a certain point of your game.
I disagree a bit about it i mean how can you ever read a book and take everything as 100% right ?
I mean everybody should be able to read books and seperate concepts that might help him etc from trash. And even if you read a book that is filled 90% with crap you still learn how certain players think about stuff and use it against them.
I dont think you can read a book and be suddenly a weaker player afterwards.

I think Ace on the river is underrated from alot of 2+2ers, its more a psychological book and thats imo the most important part specially in NLH cashgame where you can easy tilt and burn some cash..

Re: Barry: most poker books are written by losers
 

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I think Ace on the river is underrated from alot of 2+2ers, its more a psychological book and thats imo the most important part specially in NLH cashgame where you can easy tilt and burn some cash..

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Good point dna. My complaint wasn't that it wasn't good, it just wasn't good as he could have made it.

BG has the potential to write a great high-stakes poker book with advanced concepts. What we havve with the glossy AotR looks like a year of a poker magazine.