UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/inde...complete_list/

Check it out!

Some excerpts:

Best defenders from 2003-2007: (by runs_total)
1) Adam Everett, SS +113 (fking sick)
2) Brian Giles, RF +68
3) Carlos Beltran, CF +60
4) Scott Rolen, 3B +58
5) Grady Sizemore, CF +57

Worst defenders from 2003-2007: (by runs_total)
1) Manny Ramirez, LF -110 (lol)
2) Ken Griffey Jr., CF -75
3) Ty Wigginton, 3B -54
4) Derek Jeter, SS -51
5) Angel Berroa, SS -50

A notable mention is Manny Ramirez's 2005 season in left field where he was worth a staggering -47 runs, which is basically equivalent to the Red Sox losing four to five games on Manny's defense alone.

That is disgusting.

(also Michael Young sucks but I'm sure most of you knew that)

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

LOL Sizemore is top 5 and only been in the league since 04 and even then only 42 games. Sick sick super sick. The player you start a franchise right now.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

It's late, so maybe I'm getting my defensive metrics screwed up, but doesn't UZR punish Manny for playing in front of the monster? I thought I read that somewhere.

His defense is obviously still awful.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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It's late, so maybe I'm getting my defensive metrics screwed up, but doesn't UZR punish Manny for playing in front of the monster? I thought I read that somewhere.

His defense is obviously still awful.

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Do these stats include entertainment value?

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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LOL Sizemore is top 5 and only been in the league since 04 and even then only 42 games. Sick sick super sick. The player you start a franchise right now.

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Agreed. Anytime his name is mentioned, I love thinking about his contract:

Grady Sizemore of
6 years/$23.45M (2006-11), plus $8.5M 2012 club option

So fkin sick.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's late, so maybe I'm getting my defensive metrics screwed up, but doesn't UZR punish Manny for playing in front of the monster? I thought I read that somewhere.

His defense is obviously still awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, manny isnt as bad as UZR shows.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

If those defensive numbers were right, Adam Everett has been better by about 30 runs per 150 games OVERALL than Michael Young. That's roughly 3 wins or $7.2m in value.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Absolutely sick.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Whats the deal with CHC RFers?

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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LOL Sizemore is top 5 and only been in the league since 04 and even then only 42 games. Sick sick super sick. The player you start a franchise right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Anytime his name is mentioned, I love thinking about his contract:

Grady Sizemore of
6 years/$23.45M (2006-11), plus $8.5M 2012 club option

So fkin sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a good time to be a Tribe fan. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the link...I hadn't heard of any breakthrough fielding studies since Neyer recommended I pick up The Fielding Bible about 18 months ago. This looks like good stuff.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
LOL Sizemore is top 5 and only been in the league since 04 and even then only 42 games. Sick sick super sick. The player you start a franchise right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Anytime his name is mentioned, I love thinking about his contract:

Grady Sizemore of
6 years/$23.45M (2006-11), plus $8.5M 2012 club option

So fkin sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember last year having an argument with my friends (Jays fans) that Sizemore>>>>>>>>> Wells. Nobody believed me. How much variance is there in the 2007 results? Because Adam Lind has looked pretty awkward in LF getting a lot of bad reads on balls, etc.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

There's a problem with some of the totals listed. Look at Griffey - he shows up twice in the totals list, under two different names. If you look at the individual season totals, he's also listed under two names (Ken Griffey Jr for 2003-2005 and Ken Griffey for 2006-2007). Add those seasons together and you get -119 total runs, worse than Manny. He's also averaged -44 runs/150 games or worse every single season. Manny's worst was -42 runs/150 games. Bonds is only -16 total runs (-6/150 games)

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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There's a problem with some of the totals listed. Look at Griffey - he shows up twice in the totals list, under two different names. If you look at the individual season totals, he's also listed under two names (Ken Griffey Jr for 2003-2005 and Ken Griffey for 2006-2007). Add those seasons together and you get -119 total runs, worse than Manny. He's also averaged -44 runs/150 games or worse every single season. Manny's worst was -42 runs/150 games. Bonds is only -16 total runs (-6/150 games)

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It has a couple errors. I think I saw Coco Crisp on their twice, too (once as Covelli).

EDIT: I'm too lazy to look, but I just realized Coco and Griffey have both changed positions between 2003 and 2007. I'm guessing each listing is for a specific position.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

There is an entry for each position played by a player. So with Griffey, you'll see Griffey at 8 and at 9 and his value at each spot. The different names was probably just a typo.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Watching him everyday, Beltran is overrated.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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Watching him everyday, Beltran is overrated.

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hes overrated by a massive sample size of an unbiased fielding metric?

i am serious when i ask, how is that even possible?

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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3) Ty Wigginton, 3B -54

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funny, as i was watching the rays/sox games i was like "how can this fatass play 2B?" i can only imagine how bad his UZR there is.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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Watching him everyday, Beltran is overrated.

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The only way Beltran is overrated is if someone thinks he is better than Bonds circa 2004. And even then they aren't exactly too wrong.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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3) Ty Wigginton, 3B -54

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funny, as i was watching the rays/sox games i was like "how can this fatass play 2B?" i can only imagine how bad his UZR there is.

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I dunno, it's probably better - the defensive spectrum is SS->3B->2B->1B for the infield. More time to make a play, shorter throws, etc.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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3) Ty Wigginton, 3B -54

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funny, as i was watching the rays/sox games i was like "how can this fatass play 2B?" i can only imagine how bad his UZR there is.

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I dunno, it's probably better - the defensive spectrum is SS->3B->2B->1B for the infield. More time to make a play, shorter throws, etc.

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i think you have it mixed up

1B/LF/RF/3B/CF/2B/SS/C

is how i remember

anyways, im sure certain players dont fall neatly into the spectrum. regardless, having him in your infield is scary.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Is there any way to add park factors to these?

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

2nd base is tougher than 3rd base? Interesting.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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2nd base is tougher than 3rd base? Interesting.

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It makes sense.

3B EQA .268
2B EQA .262

Sublime's order looks the exact same as if you ranked them by EQA. Works intuitively for me. Harder positions have worse hitters.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Hmm. I guess. It just intuitively doesn't make sense to me as a 2nd baseman - I think 3rd is a lot tougher.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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i think you have it mixed up

1B/LF/RF/3B/CF/2B/SS/C

is how i remember

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That is what I thought as well. A few sites have confirmed this. I could be wrong, but when I was teaching my wife about the defensive spectrum, she would sometimes forget and I told her to remember the corners were the 'easier' positions, so more power/'better hitter' and up-the middle was the tougher positions.

craig

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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Hmm. I guess. It just intuitively doesn't make sense to me as a 2nd baseman - I think 3rd is a lot tougher.

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you have to cover so much more ground and turn double plays.

James

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Reaction time is reduced at third base, you need a stronger arm, and you still need to turn a few double plays yourself.

I guess it makes sense in theory, but in practice I'd much rather play second than third.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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Reaction time is reduced at third base, you need a stronger arm, and you still need to turn a few double plays yourself.

I guess it makes sense in theory, but in practice I'd much rather play second than third.

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I'm probably speaking out of my ass but to play a good 3b you need a strong arm and good reaction time, which are more physical gifts, whereas to play a good 2nd base you need to be able to position yourself correctly to cover more ground, and be able to turn the double play, which are more 'skills', which would make it a more difficult position to play well.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Pretty stupid idea on my part but is that possible that 3b has better fielders then 2b which makes up for the difference in difficulty.

i.e. if you have a lot of bad people playing 2nd base it makes it look a lot harder then it is.

For some reason, i also have the inherent idea that 3b is harder then 2b.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Kyle, I'm surprised you feel this way. I too have played both positions and find third much easier. Fielding bunts is obviously difficult, though.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

well as a left handed thrower i can tell you its doable to played 3rd on rare occasions and suicide to play 2nd

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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Kyle, I'm surprised you feel this way. I too have played both positions and find third much easier. Fielding bunts is obviously difficult, though.

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I have a really quick release but not the strongest arm in the field overall. I've also spent most of my HS/college career as a position player at second base, but I've played a bunch at third and I really don't think I could get accustomed to it.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

Stop letting your personal biases get in the way of analyzing things n00b.

Don't most SS prospects that grow too much/kinda suck at fielding get moved to 2B instead of 3B?

Still shocked at Jeromy Burnitz having the 49th best fielding season by total runs saved on the list.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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Watching him everyday, Beltran is overrated.

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hes overrated by a massive sample size of an unbiased fielding metric?

i am serious when i ask, how is that even possible?

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It's also weird since every other person who's watched Beltran play on a regular basis thinks he's great.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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Don't most SS prospects that grow too much/kinda suck at fielding get moved to 2B instead of 3B?

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Shortstops who grow too much usually move to third base in my experience.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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LOL Sizemore is top 5 and only been in the league since 04 and even then only 42 games. Sick sick super sick. The player you start a franchise right now.

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I was under the impression that a lot of metrics have Sizemore as a poor or average fielder. Interesting that this metric puts him among the elite.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

I always though third was more difficult but 2nd required more athleticism if that makes any sense. At third you have to make a lot of snap decisions, diving stops, long throws and field bunts. At 2nd you need to run around a lot more and turn double plays.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

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I always though third was more difficult but 2nd required more athleticism if that makes any sense. At third you have to make a lot of snap decisions, diving stops, long throws and field bunts. At 2nd you need to run around a lot more and turn double plays.

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I'm with kyle, I played 3B in HS, and got moved to 2B in college. 2B is a lot easier, IMO, and I'm surprised to find out that the data/ranking systems disagree.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

All,

I think there is something about distribution of hits on HBT or something that shows in the infield where most balls are hit. What was interesting is the amount of hits were almost equal for 2B and SS.

NB: Maybe it was on a different site, but I'm fairly sure HBT. Also, I'm on the side that 2B is clearly more difficult than third but requires a slightly different skillset.

Re: UZR Data Released for 2003-2007 (baseball defense stats)
 

I'm not going to make any claims about which position is harder to play. I haven't played organized baseball since little league, and I caught, so I have no clue.

The main factor, though, is the amount of plays at each position. Even if 3rd is slightly tougher, you get more value out of a good fielder at 2nd, by pure volume.

I ran over to BP and did a quick sanity check:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
AGE YEAR TEAM POS G PO A E DP
MARK ELLIS 30 2007 OAK-A SB 78 147 263 4 55
ERIC CHAVEZ 29 2007 OAK-A TB 79 64 157 6 15
</pre><hr />

I just chose the A's because they're the first team that came to mind as having a stable 2nd/3rd combo this season. 3rd base would have to be incredibly tougher than 2nd to overcome this difference in volume.