routine?
 

sweating a limit playing friend of mine. absolute 75/150 6 handed. he raises utg w/ aa gets cold called by button w/ semi lag stats. flop is 378, friend bets button calls. turn is a 2. friend bets, button raises, friend 3 bets button caps...i say insta fold, friend says insta call...im no limit pro...am i out of touch? or is my friend addicted to aces.

Re: routine?
 

Definitely can't fold to the turn cap because you have outs against 78; if he has 22/33, then so be it. However, there's no card on the river that would make me fold, just because he could be getting tricky with a big PP. Hell, I've had people do this with T9.

Re: routine?
 

any flush draw(s)?

Re: routine?
 

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any flush draw(s)?

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no

Re: routine?
 

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Definitely can't fold to the turn cap because you have outs against 78; if he has 22/33, then so be it. However, there's no card on the river that would make me fold, just because he could be getting tricky with a big PP. Hell, I've had people do this with T9.

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can you really put him on 78 or 9t? a cc w/ 78 is highly unlikely and then not raising the flop w/ said 78 even makes it less likely he holds that hand. 9t is a lttle more likely if your grasping at strwas but even then if you run the numbers at poker stove and give him either 9t OR 87 in his range w/ 22.33.77.and 88 its still an easy fold. i think overpairs are out for the 4 bet..they MIGHT call 3 but not make it 4.

Re: routine?
 

why would he raise the flop with 78 but not a set?

Why would he coldcall with 22 but not 78s?

If he's a lag is he not pretty likely to 3bet 77 or 88 preflop?

Re: routine?
 

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why would he raise the flop with 78 but not a set?

Why would he coldcall with 22 but not 78s?

If he's a lag is he not pretty likely to 3bet 77 or 88 preflop?

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i feel that when players can only beat overcards they raise when they are beating overcards. many players wait until the big streets to raise w/ sets. players tend to like pairs more than mid connectors hu because they can win unimproved. i dont really put this guy on 88 i think he would have 3 bet. maybe he just froze up a little or is running bad and just called w/ 22,33,77 in the hopes of raiseing when babies flop.

Re: routine?
 

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i feel that when players can only beat overcards they raise when they are beating overcards.

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I dont really understand what you are saying. 78 beats all one pair hands, not just overcards. I dont really see why you think a player is more likely to raise the flop with 78 than he is a set.

Re: routine?
 

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i feel that when players can only beat overcards they raise when they are beating overcards.

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I dont really understand what you are saying. 78 beats all one pair hands, not just overcards. I dont really see why you think a player is more likely to raise the flop with 78 than he is a set.

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OOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSS! ur right. the 2 came on the flop and the 8 on the turn. my bad...lets start over.

Re: routine?
 

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can you really put him on 78 or 9t? a cc w/ 78 is highly unlikely and then not raising the flop w/ said 78 even makes it less likely he holds that hand. 9t is a lttle more likely if your grasping at strwas but even then if you run the numbers at poker stove and give him either 9t OR 87 in his range w/ 22.33.77.and 88 its still an easy fold. i think overpairs are out for the 4 bet..they MIGHT call 3 but not make it 4.

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I don't think T9 is necessarily likely, but possible. What I was trying to get at is that I think your perceived hand range and his actual hand range are two different things.

Basically, The Llama said everything I was going to say. Granted, I've never played 75/150, but even at 50/100, no one ever believes anyone. I don't think your expectation of this guy folding his overpair on the turn after getting the excessive action that he was hoping for with his PF/flop line is going to happen, but maybe it's my hand range that's off.

Ultimately, I think AA is best/has outs often enough to not only see the river, but also a showdown.

Re: routine?
 

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can you really put him on 78 or 9t? a cc w/ 78 is highly unlikely and then not raising the flop w/ said 78 even makes it less likely he holds that hand. 9t is a lttle more likely if your grasping at strwas but even then if you run the numbers at poker stove and give him either 9t OR 87 in his range w/ 22.33.77.and 88 its still an easy fold. i think overpairs are out for the 4 bet..they MIGHT call 3 but not make it 4.

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I don't think T9 is necessarily likely, but possible. What I was trying to get at is that I think your perceived hand range and his actual hand range are two different things.

Basically, The Llama said everything I was going to say. Granted, I've never played 75/150, but even at 50/100, no one ever believes anyone. I don't think your expectation of this guy folding his overpair on the turn after getting the excessive action that he was hoping for with his PF/flop line is going to happen, but maybe it's my hand range that's off.

Ultimately, I think AA is best/has outs often enough to not only see the river, but also a showdown.

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fold overpair rarely. 4 bet weak overpair even rarer.

Re: routine?
 

folding to the 4 should never be an option. the 3bet is def debatable.

"..im no limit pro..."

lol

Re: routine?
 

i'd love to go on a rant about how bad NL players are at limit hold'em, but i'll just quote cts since he explained it perfectly in his blog:

"The past few days I've been donking around in the 100/200 limit hold'em games, which I haven't played forever. It's a nice change of pace and I feel like NLHE players do pretty well because they read hands better than some LHE players who just call down every time no matter how obvious it is they are beat..."

Re: routine?
 

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folding to the 4 should never be an option. the 3bet is def debatable.

"..im no limit pro..."

lol

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wow...so on a dry board you never fold aces on the turn...ever. thats new. is this just on line or live as well?

Re: routine?
 

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i'd love to go on a rant about how bad NL players are at limit hold'em, but i'll just quote cts since he explained it perfectly in his blog:

"The past few days I've been donking around in the 100/200 limit hold'em games, which I haven't played forever. It's a nice change of pace and I feel like NLHE players do pretty well because they read hands better than some LHE players who just call down every time no matter how obvious it is they are beat..."

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i tend to agree w/cts there..please, start rant...now

Re: routine?
 

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i tend to agree w/cts there

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i know. you are a no limit player.

Re: routine?
 

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i tend to agree w/cts there

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i know. you are a no limit player.

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i actually play a ton of limit, just not limit holdem. the mixed game is almost always limit. im not saying im right on the subject at hand but i think my analysis is still best.

Re: routine?
 

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folding to the 4 should never be an option. the 3bet is def debatable.

"..im no limit pro..."

lol

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wow...so on a dry board you never fold aces on the turn...ever. thats new. is this just on line or live as well?

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live i can find a fold to a single raise on the turn against plenty of players. none of them are considered lags, or aggro, or unpredictable.

online never and esp against a dude who is "button w/ semi lag stats."

Re: routine?
 

When I'm playing really really well I will fold here to the 4-bet, because you are almost always crushed here, and when the board does pair, a good chunk of the time you are still behind to a boat instead of ahead of a counterfeited 2-pair. Most of the time, however, I do call down and do lose.

Re: routine?
 

if his range is only 22,33,77,88, 87s you have 6.5% equity with AA and are getting 10.5:1 to make the turn call which means you need 8.9% equity. So even if this is his range it is very close to a call.

Any player described as a lag online has a much bigger range however. He will often turn up with hands like 9To, K8s, and A8o here. A lot of times he is making a "free showdown cap," so your effective odds to call are better than they appear.

As for NL players playing limit, my experience is a lot different. A lot of times they may have better hand reading "skills", but the problem is they haven't played enough limit holdem to accurately put players on hand ranges based on their actions. It takes a ton of hands before you know how typical lags play hands in certain situations for example.

NL players also often tend to rely on their "reads" and often disregard the pot odds they are getting. This leads them to make bad folds fairly often.

And don't get me started on river value betting...

Re: routine?
 

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When I'm playing really really well I will fold here to the 4-bet, because you are almost always crushed here, and when the board does pair, a good chunk of the time you are still behind to a boat instead of ahead of a counterfeited 2-pair. Most of the time, however, I do call down and do lose.

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As you should.

By the time you are at the "fold or call a 4 bet" decision, the pot is big enough that the times you do win make up for it.

Re: routine?
 

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sweating a limit playing friend of mine. absolute 75/150 6 handed. he raises utg w/ aa gets cold called by button w/ semi lag stats. flop is 378, friend bets button calls. turn is a 2. friend bets, button raises, friend 3 bets button caps...i say insta fold, friend says insta call...im no limit pro...am i out of touch? or is my friend addicted to aces.

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Both blinds fold, so 5.5 SBs on the flop, 7.5 sb or 3.75BB on the turn. Now you're thinking of folding after 7 more bets go in? If the opponent has two pair you have five outs, more than sufficient to call for 10:1, even if you knew for certain he had two pair. And he'll have a hand worse than that almost as often as he has a set or better. No way do you fold this in a heads up pot.

Re: routine?
 

the main point here is that you'll see a stupidly played AA-JJ often enough here.

Re: routine?
 

when does AP ever run 150/300 6 max?

Re: routine?
 

NL players are so fun to play at limit. Just like I don't stand a chance vs a good NL player...perhaps to a lesser extent they don't stand a chance vs me. The whole 'hand reading and folding 'thing is incredibly off and the lines they take and value bets they miss are incredible - Especially short-handed.

Re: routine?
 

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the main point here is that you'll see a stupidly played AA-JJ often enough here.

[/ QUOTE ]It would also not be uncharacteristic for a LAG to free sd cap 44-66.

Re: routine?
 

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folding to the 4 should never be an option. the 3bet is def debatable.

"..im no limit pro..."

lol

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wow...so on a dry board you never fold aces on the turn...ever. thats new. is this just on line or live as well?

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live i can find a fold to a single raise on the turn against plenty of players. none of them are considered lags, or aggro, or unpredictable.

online never and esp against a dude who is "button w/ semi lag stats."

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so then youre not folding any overpair ever in this situation? on a blank river your willing to get 4 bets in again w/aa? or a river that pairs the bottom card...4 bets for sure...or can you actually make a read on the river you cant make on the turn?

Re: routine?
 

Lol... I would have a read on the river, the read is 'potodds'.

Re: routine?
 

"so then youre not folding any overpair ever in this situation? on a blank river your willing to get 4 bets in again w/aa? or a river that pairs the bottom card...4 bets for sure...or can you actually make a read on the river you cant make on the turn?"

no im never folding here. the qualifier is that im not always 3betting the turn. in fact, i proly 3bet this turn far less than i should. but when i do 3bet there is no fckn way im folding.

Re: routine?
 

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"so then youre not folding any overpair ever in this situation? on a blank river your willing to get 4 bets in again w/aa? or a river that pairs the bottom card...4 bets for sure...or can you actually make a read on the river you cant make on the turn?"

no im never folding here. the qualifier is that im not always 3betting the turn. in fact, i proly 3bet this turn far less than i should. but when i do 3bet there is no fckn way im folding.

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ok, a guy whos a little laggy just cold calls an utg raiser. then just calls on a flop of all babys now riases the turn. when he raises the turn i think his hand range is very wide because he has no reason to beleive we even hbave a pair soo the 3 bet is auto, but once we 3 bet he becomes sure we have a big pair and he is going to have to show his hand down, now why he 4 bet unless he has the goods? and he cant be "4betting for a free showdown" becuase there is a decent chance we will lead the river. btw in the hand mentioned the dude had 77 and we spiked an ace for the win so i guess you are all right when you say we had outs.

Re: routine?
 

If you're playing in a game with good enough observant players if the thought of folding to a 4-bet ever crosses your mind, the play is to call the turn raise. Sure even if he has a set this time, if the whole table sees you 3-bet and fold to a 4-bet, that's the type of thing that your expert players will start exploiting -- therefore forcing you to only 3-bet with the nuts in the future, or else forcing you to make very light call downs to make sure people aren't starting to take shots at you. There are a lot of players who the ol' "4-betting for a free showdown" works very well against, because it might get them to fold a better hand, and they rarely 5-bet or lead into you again on the river.

I'd rather have an unbluffable image so that way people will sometimes raise me light on the turn (expecting me to call down lightly), therefore meaning I can 3-bet them lightly and get even more value.

Re: routine?
 

"ok, a guy whos a little laggy just cold calls an utg raiser....btw in the hand mentioned the dude had 77"

your read is off.

Re: routine?
 

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If you're playing in a game with good enough observant players if the thought of folding to a 4-bet ever crosses your mind, the play is to call the turn raise. Sure even if he has a set this time, if the whole table sees you 3-bet and fold to a 4-bet, that's the type of thing that your expert players will start exploiting -- therefore forcing you to only 3-bet with the nuts in the future, or else forcing you to make very light call downs to make sure people aren't starting to take shots at you. There are a lot of players who the ol' "4-betting for a free showdown" works very well against, because it might get them to fold a better hand, and they rarely 5-bet or lead into you again on the river.

I'd rather have an unbluffable image so that way people will sometimes raise me light on the turn (expecting me to call down lightly), therefore meaning I can 3-bet them lightly and get even more value.

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well thats better reasoning but in the situation given were not worried about table image and/or were good enough to exploit our bizarre 3 bet and fold line (especially in games w/ 5 bets). just on its merits is 99-aa good often enough here to call?

Re: routine?
 

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"ok, a guy whos a little laggy just cold calls an utg raiser....btw in the hand mentioned the dude had 77"

your read is off.

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he was 26/19/2+ i think. i dont even know if this is a semi lag anymore. might be a rock nowadays...

Re: routine?
 

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"ok, a guy whos a little laggy just cold calls an utg raiser....btw in the hand mentioned the dude had 77"

your read is off.

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he was 26/19/2+ i think. i dont even know if this is a semi lag anymore. might be a rock nowadays...

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6-handed that's pretty tight.

Rob

Re: routine?
 

ya thats as tight as they come in this day in age.

Re: routine?
 

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ya thats as tight as they come in this day in age.

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so does that then make my insta fold advice correct? or do you still all fight the impulse to read a hand and limply call down...

Re: routine?
 

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NL players also often tend to rely on their "reads" and often disregard the pot odds they are getting. This leads them to make bad folds fairly often.

And don't get me started on river value betting...

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yeah..lol on those nl dooodz who try to think through hands. dont they know your just supposed to spew chips pre flop/flop and bloat the pot so big that you then get to call call down for " the size of the pot". showdowns r fun!

Re: routine?
 

This is one of the first times I disagree with your analysis. Of course we are almost never going to fold to a 4bet, this situation being one of very few I can imagine. I think that it is at least as likely to encourage loose caps on the turn as it is to encourage unwanted caps. Now, if I had already folded a situation like this in the session, I would never do it again.

Re: routine?
 

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ya thats as tight as they come in this day in age.

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so does that then make my insta fold advice correct? or do you still all fight the impulse to read a hand and limply call down...

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no. limon why dont read my posts. i dont overplay my hand and put myslef in a terrible spot.