Folding Queens preflop???
 

4.5BB shover just got 3 outered in a monster pot so is clearly tilted, SB is a solid aggressive player who is neither excessivly loose nor tight preflop.

This is a pretty insane overbet but he will have to go to showdown against the shorty so I will be seeing his hand either way.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $248.55
BB: $155.25
UTG: $4.50
CO: $191.50
Hero (BTN): $161.05

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises all-in to $4.50</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $15.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises all-in to $248.55</font>, 2 folds
Uncalled bet of $233.55 returned to SB

Flop: ($35.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Turn: ($35.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

River: ($35.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $35.50 ($1.75 Rake)

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

fold...160BB deap makes it easier

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

You can not call this. AI's preflop in cash games have a way of turning up as aces, or at least kings. His play is weird, but you can't get carried away.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

Results?

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

I will post results when I wake up tomorrow... I folded this pretty quickly but sitll think it was one of my toughest spots of the night and warrants discussion.


One of the reasons that made me think is he is smart enough to realize I could be isolating the shortstack with a very wide range... maybe something like A2+ K9+ and 66+, but still, a bet that large I just didn't think it was worth it with queens, even with JJ in his hand range I still can't call.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

In cash game, isolating that small shortstack has not so much value, I believe. Why are you doing it with such a big range?

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

Pretty easy fold if he isn't retarded.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

Easy fold.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

at best u are a coin flip against ak. more than likely u are well behind, has to be a fold.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

why is this an easy fold again? why dose he not play kings or aces with a reraise on top, instead of a push? as played i guess i fold but i hit time and look into my crystal ball for advice. . . if hes tilted i almost want to call and see him flip jj or 10-10 or ak, but theres nothing wrong with a fold

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

i don't understand a repush with aa or kk, because if you are, in his mind, trying to iso the short stack, your folding to this push, destroying the value from his aa or kk, on second thought with this guy on tilt, i am leaning towards a call

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

[ QUOTE ]
if hes tilted i almost want to call and see him flip jj or 10-10 or ak, but theres nothing wrong with a fold

[/ QUOTE ]

OP says nothing about SB beeing tilted. It says that he is a solid aggressive player.

Beeing 160bb deep this seems like a good place to fold.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

yeah, whoops 1st raiser was tilted but why do we assume aa or kk is going to be played out like that?

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

Were not really assuming that he has AA or KK but surely it has to make up for quite a big part of his range.

Your crushed by AA/KK and flipping against AK. This together with the fact that the money in the pot are fairly small compared to his AI raise makes me fold without worry.

Also he has to know that you at least have a semi decent hand since you will be going to showdown against shorty.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

i just see him doing this with 1010, jj, and ak-- two were big favors and one its a coinflip, i mean i probably think about it for a while and fold since we get to see his cards but i was just wondering the logic behind why this is an easy fold, i guess aa or kk could openshove right there but i just feel like thats marginal ev, as we aren't calling a shove with much which loses lots of profits for villan

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

im leaning towards him having AK. AA/KK would want a call from op, with this 16x raise i think he is trying to take down the dead money from op folding and going heads up with shortstack.

I could easily be wrong tho, and that doubt would make this a fold for me, because its a slight favorite/big underdog situation and its for a lot of $$$.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

[ QUOTE ]
why is this an easy fold again? why dose he not play kings or aces with a reraise on top, instead of a push? as played i guess i fold but i hit time and look into my crystal ball for advice. . . if hes tilted i almost want to call and see him flip jj or 10-10 or ak, but theres nothing wrong with a fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh agreed on this.. I also think he can play AA and KK like that... he may suspect u are trying to isolate the tilting all in with a KQ or AJ sort of hand so he might just be semi stealing with a hand like 1010 but yeh 160BB deep theres nothing wrong with a fold here.. look forward to results.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

i mean even jj knows aq can't call and maybe even ak, but if he views this play as an iso, he can shove more widely- i mean with a large bankroll i really am leaning towards call because i honestly believe we're ahead more times than not but that could just be a me thing

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

I would insta-call. I'm sure 90% of villians would not be doing this with aces. Kings is certainly a possibility but so is jacks and AK. Evan if villians range is as tight as KK, QQ, AK We are only a slight underdog, and there is enougth in the pot (evan considering the deap stacks) to make it a call.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

not many solid players would do this with QQ. His range is weighted towards AK, but KK+ is def in there

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

unknown, all i'm asking is why can't we add 10-10 and jj in there too? it looks like an iso play and he knows that we could raise with a wide range of hands and can only call down a push with very few, with all that dead money in the pot i see him doing this more lose, there is a possibility with kk but i don't get why everyone sees this spot as an instafold-- just some guidance would be nice for a newb/ donk like myself

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

oops should probably read op before commenting didnt realise utg was all-in [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I think i might call this now, close since it's 160bbs deep 100, and im snap-calling. You're right, his range opens up now

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

I guess no one uses Poker Stove anymore... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

54,793,728 games 0.015 secs 3,652,915,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.098% 48.39% 01.70% 26516414 934028.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 49.902% 48.20% 01.70% 26409258 934028.00 { AdAh, AdAs, AhAs, KK-JJ, AKs, AKo }


[/ QUOTE ]

IMO his range could be wider than this. Add TT and it becomes a clear call.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

is this the kind of player that knows you could be isolating the guy who shoved for 4.5bb?
or is he a abc tag who just plays his cards, I think this is a pretty big difference in your judgement.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

thats what i was thinking after re-reading it, just wanted to make sure thats not a huge leak in my game or anything because your opinion + EV/&gt; versus mine

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

Why is everyone trying to rationalise the play of someone making such a huge overshove. The villains shove is bad with any holding he could have. This is KK+ like 90% in my opinion from someone who isn't comfortable with big pairs semi deep post flop.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

big pairs semi deep? the raise was a typical 3-bet trying to take down the 8 dollars in the pot for free with position, if hes good hes re-raising with so many hands because we call very few, kk is a possibility but not at all 90 percent and not an all-in, this screams ak to me or jj

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

[ QUOTE ]
big pairs semi deep? the raise was a typical 3-bet trying to take down the 8 dollars in the pot for free with position, if hes good hes re-raising with so many hands because we call very few, kk is a possibility but not at all 90 percent and not an all-in, this screams ak to me or jj

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody who is competent is iso shoving 150bbs more on top of an isolation reraise with TT/JJ or even QQ. AK is also not very likely this deep.

What does TT/JJ/QQ expect to be called by when the shove for 150bbs more? It's just a case where worse hands rarely call and better hands rarely fold.

This is AA/KK from a solid player quite often IMO.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

Full ring game I'd instafold this, maybe I'd need to mutter to myself for ten seconds first if I'm in a tilty mood. I haven't played 6max in a long time so maybe you can consider a call, but in my experience your typical half-decent to decent player has only AA/KK and maybe AK here (the occasional QQ too maybe), and I only see weak players pushing lower pairs. *Maybe* some very good players with a good read on you push with some lower pairs too, but even then I'd be surprised when you're ahead.

Edit: A player pushing, say, JJ would probably just as easilly push 22 - he knows if you call you either have QQ+ or AK. Hopefully if you were with this type of villain you'd have seen him make a move like this already.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

Well as you can see I folded SB had AA and beat UTG's J9... I gave myself a pat on the back and moved on.

Sounds like most agree on a fold so I like my decision.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

I've been disagreeing with AP a lot lately but he is absolutely right here -- this is KK+ the vast majority of the time.

Why?

Because so many players like, apparently, most of this board say "Boah he'd never do that with a big hand! INSTA-Call!" right before they say "Oh, [censored]."

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

i mean fair enough, but can't most competent players see heros 3-bet as weak and re-raise with a much larger handbase, knowing hero can't call with much. . . i guess if someones calling a 3 bet over they are calling a push as well so might as well push- it just seems to me if hes a good player 6 handed he can make this play with a wider handbase

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

[ QUOTE ]
i mean fair enough, but can't most competent players see heros 3-bet as weak and re-raise with a much larger handbase, knowing hero can't call with much. . . i guess if someones calling a 3 bet over they are calling a push as well so might as well push- it just seems to me if hes a good player 6 handed he can make this play with a wider handbase

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody "good" 4 bets all in here with a wide range 160bbs deep.

Re: Folding Queens preflop???
 

Villain 4-bet shoved cold 160BB deep. Doing that with TT-JJ is suicidal. Doing it with AA/KK/AK is a bad play, but not nearly as bad as doing it with TT/JJ. If villain is doing this as a squeeze to get HU w/ UTG, he's crazy.

[ QUOTE ]
Because so many players like, apparently, most of this board say "Boah he'd never do that with a big hand! INSTA-Call!" right before they say "Oh, [censored]."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right.

QQ is an easy fold here.