Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

I often see big pots won in high stakes games , and the winner is holding suited connectors. Truthfully, i don't recall whether he raised first in with them or jsut called down a raise and caught a good hand.

Is it correct to call raises IN POSITION with these types of hands ie 89s, 78d, J,10h ?????

I have tried it some time ago, with some success, but i was not convinced it was a sound thing to do longer term,as you seldom caught a hand, and then often couldn't get paid off with it.

Thoughts please...

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

In position it is correct to call a single raise yes. Of course the more players and the larger the stacks the more inclined you should be to call. I find that it is much more profitable when you have 2-3 people already in the pot as you are more likely to be paid off.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

good question though.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

Most high stakes players consider the value of SC's not so much in the ability of these hands to make nut crakers, but in the fact that when you add these hands into your standard raises from all positions, it makes it much more difficult for villains to put you on a hand range...

Thus your big hands get:

A: More action vs thinking opponents, since a raise UTG is no longer AJs+,AQo,+TT+, thus they will often be willing to 3-bet you with worse holdings in pos.

B: Thinking villains also have a much harder time putting you on a hand, making them have to play more marginal spots vs you, for ex

you hold KK and open for a standard raise UTG

Standard Tag flat calls from the CO with 99.

Flop comes all under cards and you lead for 3/4 pot.

If villain can put you on a pretty specific hand range, he is able to get away from this hand fairly easily here, even in no overcards come on the turn or river, but when you add SC's here, our hand range becomes much wider, thus villain is forced to play a marginal hand here in a situation that could put his stack in play.

Boosted J did an article for bluff I believe, about his theory of JBucks, and the value that SC's add to your game by raising them from all positions....don't have the link, but look it up and print it out and then spend a couple of days digesting it, it will really open your eyes to some things that can make a huge difference in your game at higher levels.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

There is a post out there somewhere called something like "Implied Odds, Suited Connectors, and YOU". Maybe it's stickied, idk. Find that post.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

i rarely cold call a raise with SCs in pos. rr or fold.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

Some other stuff...

Cold calling a ton in general isn't so great, but an SC in position is good against a few types. If villain is kind of mindless and will cbet everything and shut down, you can flop all sorts of good and bad draws and float or bluffraise with them and take advantage of his nittiness. If villain just can't fold his overpairs to those big river bets on raggy/scary boards, it's another good spot to play.

If it's a tough opponent who will 2barrel a lot and never pays off when the obvious draws hit, then it's not very great anymore.

Hell I 3bet them in position once in a while against people I play with alot, just to mix things up and mess with their ranging of me.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

Depends on how weak of a player I view villain, and stack sizes. The weaker he is, and the deeper I am increases how likely I am to CC with them exponentially.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

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i rarely cold call a raise with SCs in pos. rr or fold.

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orange...why?

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

Always reraising with SC's is giving up alot of money. Certain villains just can't play well OOP at all, and SCs are a great way to exploit them. Particularly those that:

1. Will cbet most any flop, and give up on the turn if they don't have it.

2. Will cbet most any flop and then cbet about 60% of turns as well.

Betting the turn against the first and raising against the second is such easy money, and with an expectation way more than their 4BB preflop. This is all in lieu of SC's ability to also make real hands and get paid off.

I'd much rather take the 3-bet/fold attitude if you are OOP, when it becomes much much more difficult to play them well postflop - and alot of their value is just in widening your range.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

Worm

Your reply is a real eye opener. Thank yo and i will look up the BoostedJ article.....but where....here at 2+2??

ty again and good luck out there

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Boosted J did an article for bluff I believe, about his theory of JBucks, and the value that SC's add to your game by raising them from all positions....don't have the link, but look it up and print it out and then spend a couple of days digesting it, it will really open your eyes to some things that can make a huge difference in your game at higher levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was Jman, not Boosted J and they were called G-bucks.

I rarely coldcall raises with suited connectors unless there is another caller. I don't think they hit often enough for it to be worthwhile against one opp. I reraise some of the time too.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

Thank you all. Some awesome replies here , and links to other posters on the topic. I think i'm going to move down stakes for a while and try this idea out and see what effect it has on "things as they are".

Good luck out there all of you

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

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I rarely coldcall raises with suited connectors unless there is another caller. I don't think they hit often enough for it to be worthwhile against one opp.

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This is my line too. But obviously you have to look at other factors too:
*If there are other players left that are capable of squeezing it is not a great move to call.
* How does my opponent play postflop? Will he fire multiple barrels? Will he pay me off if i hit?

But my standard move is to fold suited connectors if there is a raise before me and no call, evaluate to call or not if there is a raise and call, and call if more than one caller.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

the fact is most of the time even when u do flop a pair it is going to be middle or bottom... u need high implied odds to be just calling with these hands which means deep stacks and lots of players in the pot. if you do get lucky however and you are up against an overpair or better these type of hands are really well disguised and can make u a lot of money. the problem is.. weaker players play them to often imo. they will play almost every suiter connector they get in any postion and this can only be -ev over time.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

callings fine

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i rarely cold call a raise with SCs in pos. rr or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

orange...why?

[/ QUOTE ]

because it makes it easier for opponents to narrow his range down. i rarely cold call with sc's for this same reason. a decent player will know what you're cold calling with. the same applies to small pairs to some extent. although i feel you can get away with cold calling more at $100nl than $200nl+.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i rarely cold call a raise with SCs in pos. rr or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

orange...why?

[/ QUOTE ]

because it makes it easier for opponents to narrow his range down. i rarely cold call with sc's for this same reason. a decent player will know what you're cold calling with. the same applies to small pairs to some extent. although i feel you can get away with cold calling more at $100nl than $200nl+.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that this isn't correct. People who cold call do it with broadway cards, pairs, SC, etc.

The reason to RR with SCs is to isolate your opponent in position. A large part of your profit is going to be from taking the pot down when you whiff or are semi-bluffing. You can't do this if you call and the blinds call as well, or if you allow your opponent to have the initiative going to the flop. You're also going to want a free card sometimes, which you can get if they are checking to the raiser.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

my head is gonna explode reading that post.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

[ QUOTE ]
my head is gonna explode reading that post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine? Why?

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

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ianlippert raised an important point in that thread that usually isn't considered, that I would have raised myself if he didn't. People always think in terms of stacking the raiser who presumably hold AA/KK. Not usually so. There are so many other things he might have that won't pay you off. He might have been goofing around with SCs himself, so that he can bluff you off the flop if you miss or hit very weakly, but you can't win any money off him probabably.

But possibly more importantly, you have to consider AK/AQ here, and what it takes for them to make a hand and pay you off. You have fewer outs on the flop than you think - there has to be an A/K/Q, which leaves you with only 2 other cards to work with.

Re: Calling raises with suited connectors...theory question
 

can someone shine some light on that thread, i read it and kinad/sorta feel like i got the jist of it. . . reraise position, semi-bluff on most flops, esp ones that hit your hand 1/8 or so and then turn? fire 2nd barrel against presumed weakness or slow down