Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

Got into a debate last night - I argued that the Champions' League winner (or any top club) would defeat the World Cup winner. Reason being a club team with a huge budget like Madrid/ManUtd/Chelsea can pick and choose among the best players in the world, whereas a national team is confined by only being able to use players from that country. His argument was that some national teams (France, Brazil) are just so ridiculously talented that no club can match up with them; they also play with much better chemistry, he said. So denizens of 2p2, what say you?

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

obv club teams would win.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Got into a debate last night - I argued that the Champions' League winner (or any top club) would defeat the World Cup winner. Reason being a club team with a huge budget like Madrid/ManUtd/Chelsea can pick and choose among the best players in the world, whereas a national team is confined by only being able to use players from that country. His argument was that some national teams (France, Brazil) are just so ridiculously talented that no club can match up with them; they also play with much better chemistry, he said. So denizens of 2p2, what say you?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think the Italian national team is weaker than AC Milan you're crazy. But the top flight clubs and top flight international teams would be competitive versus each other. My unsubstantiated guess is the international teams would take away 60-65% of the points.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

National teams, its not even that close.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

How can national teams have more chemistry than club teams?

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
they also play with much better chemistry

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

so first three posts are

obv club teams
50/50
obv national teams


personally i think club teams would have a 60-65% advantage

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
obv club teams would win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

club teams.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

Countries would beat 95% of clubs. The highest of club teams would beat most countries.

Top clubs and top countries would be very competitive with no more than a 5-10% advantage either way.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

I've been curious about this topic for a long time and it comes up now and then. I think there's been a dramatic change over the last twenty years or so. Not that long ago, most club leagues only allowed like 2 foreign players per team. I remember I think Barcelona had Romario, Hagi, and Stoichkov, and one of them would be benched!--and that was just 10 years ago. Now I think all club leagues allow all foreign players.

So not long ago, the world cup really was creme de la creme, so to speak, the best players, best teams, best competitions.

now there's so much money in the clubs and they can take all the best players and have them train and play together all year, that for the most part the clubs have overtaken. Players don't spend much time at all with their national teams, I don't think.

But not entirely. I think if you took the top 20 club teams and top 20 national teams, and had a round robin or whatever, I think the top 50% would be dominated by clubs. Like 15-5. But I tihnk the top 5 or so would probably go either way and be close to a split.

From the last WC, I don't think the likes of Sweden, Mexico, or even (as much as I liked them) Germany would really be competitive to win a top league, not to mention Ecuador or Ukraine etc. Argentina or Italy versus Barcelona or Man U, I don't know I think it would be awesome to see. Maybe the very top national teams should be the clear winners. But what about Portugal or Holland or England from last year?

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

The only national teams that could be really competitive are probably France, Italy, Brazil, and Argentina, but I think these teams lose a majority of the time to the top clubs in the world.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

club teams benefit from players retired from national team play but not club play. despite that, i think brazil, argentina, france, italy, england, spain, germany, portugal and the netherlands would all dominate play against champions league clubs. especially given a full season of play together.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

the question is who wins the best club in the world OR the best national team in the world.
Is there a team that can seriously challenge Italy?

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Countries would beat 95% of clubs. The highest of club teams would beat most countries.

Top clubs and top countries would be very competitive with no more than a 5-10% advantage either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is obviously the correct answer, so I stopped reading after this post.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

The best club teams would beat the best national teams. You have the best players from the best countries on these teams, without the weaker players on the national teams. The best club teams are basically all star teams of the best national team players.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[national teams] especially given a full season of play together.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this would change the question/ situation too much.

The way I think of this issue is: where do you see better played matches, top leagues and champ league versus world cup? I think the clubs give you much better, except maybe at the very very top of national teams. and even then it's hard to judge b/c those nat'l teams look great on paper, but most of their matches are against weak or mediocre national teams. I really have no idea how Italy would do against whatever the best club is. but Germany gave them a pretty tough match, and I don't see Germany being competitive. There's just such better ball movement when you play and train together all year in a club.

or: is holland or portugal really favored to compete for first in the EPL?

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
The best club teams would beat the best national teams. You have the best players from the best countries on these teams, without the weaker players on the national teams. The best club teams are basically all star teams of the best national team players.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more of a problem than people are giving credit for. Having top talent from all of the good countries mean you are losing some of that talent whenever you would play against a great national team. FIFA rules.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
The best club teams are basically all star teams of the best national team players.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement makes no sense. Before making a declaration like this, why don't you *name* the best club team(s) in the world, and then back it up with their roster against that of, say Italy's, national team?

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

I think Inter, ManU, Barca, Chelsea, RM, and AC Milan are all better than Italy.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
is holland or portugal really favored to compete for first in the EPL?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think holland/portugal could easily compete for the top of the table, if not first, at the very least cl spots.
They wouldn't have the overall amount of talent of chelsea/man u, but they would very easily out class pretty much all other epl teams(I think they would be about par of arsenal/pool). Plus, I think a portugal coached by Scolari could easily compete in their matches w/ chelsea/man u

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

if what you say is true then most of the players on these squads would be playing in bigger leagues. As it is, most of Hollands team play in Holland, and the same is true for Portugal.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
if what you say is true then most of the players on these squads would be playing in bigger leagues. As it is, most of Hollands team play in Holland, and the same is true for Portugal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily, For lots of those players it is often better for them to stay in their weaker home leagues on the stronger teams in those leagues than to say, go to England and play for a middle of the table team, simply because they will be able to play in europe.

Also, every european country has a bias in that the vast majority of it's players come from it's league. A team such as France still draws a lot of it's players from the french league, which is not on the same tier as the english/italian/spanish leagues.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

Most of the French National team play either abroad or for Lyon.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the French National team play either abroad or for Lyon.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lyon are a premier team in an otherwise average league.
Just like porto/benefica in portugal and ajax/psv in the dutch league.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S9CfdkMFR8

I am done with this debate, enjoy that.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The best club teams are basically all star teams of the best national team players.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement makes no sense. Before making a declaration like this, why don't you *name* the best club team(s) in the world, and then back it up with their roster against that of, say Italy's, national team?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently that makes no sense. Use your brain, many club teams have the best players on all the top national team, and national teams usually have a couple weak spots, like defense and goalie for brazil, and I guess offense for Italy.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The best club teams are basically all star teams of the best national team players.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement makes no sense. Before making a declaration like this, why don't you *name* the best club team(s) in the world, and then back it up with their roster against that of, say Italy's, national team?

[/ QUOTE ]

What he means is that a team like Chelsea or Man U has 11 starters (and some bench players) who are all on a national team. (I remember reading a stat that said Man U had 15 players on WC teams and Chelsea has 16.

I don't think it's clear that the Italian team has better players at each position than Chelsea. Chelsea has a better GK, and a better midfield. Italy has better defenders (not by much, Terry and Carvalho is a damn good combination, though the RB and LB positions may be wanting). Strikers--I don't think anyone compared to Drogba last season.

So Chelsea is definitely competitive with Italy--and Chelsea wasn't even the best team in the EPL last season.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

Man U v Portugal would be so sick.


I would pay so much money to see Ronaldo v Ronaldo

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, every european country has a bias in that the vast majority of it's players come from it's league.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only for the teams in the middle/bottom of the table. The elite teams in each country are a mixture of all the elite players from around the world.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

The top national sides would beat the top clubs, and it's not even close.

Just consider the number of top clubs, using a not too wide definition of top clubs, I'd say we have the following:

Barcelona
Real Madrid
Valencia
Arsenal
Chelsea
Liverpool
Manchester United
Bayern Munich
Lyon
Inter
Juventus
Milan
Roma

That would be 13 clubs that fight for their share of the world's top talents, while there are also world class players in other clubs.

This while the world's top nations would be Brazil, Argentina, France, Italy, Spain and then possibly Germany, England, Holland.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

There are elite players that play for those club teams that come from countries other than Brazil, Argentina etc.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

Of course, I just feel that the talent is more heavily concentrated to the national sides.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

Club teams every time. Talent is overestimated, team work isn't.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, I just feel that the talent is more heavily concentrated to the national sides.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's kind of silly. You're forgetting that there are a lot of national sides that have 2-3 top players that are available for club teams to even out things. Consider:

Didier Drogba - Ivory Coast
Andriy Shevchenko - Ukraine
Petr Cech - Czech Republic
Michael Essien - Ghana

All Chelsea players, and all world class in their positions. Two of them may even be considered the best in their respective roles (Cech, Drogba). And if I were feeling generous I could throw Nigerian John Obi Mikel and Peruvian Claudio Pizarro in the mix as well.

To me there's no doubt that the concentration of talent in the major clubs is denser than in even the best national sides. Add in the fact that these guys play and train together all year long, I think the edge is pretty decent, probably around 10-15%.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

its relatively close either way between the top clubs and top national teams. the club teams are the ones that would have much better chemistry though.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

Club teams easily.

Teamwork>>>>>>>>>Talent

And the talent level is fairly equal in my opinion. If you look at another sport, basketball, this is why team USA loses. Most talent by far, but they dont play together that often and get their asses handed to them by crap teams like Greece who have much less talent but play together all the time.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

Jacob, I was thinking about this yesterday, which NBA team would beat Team America in a 7 game series?

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

The US team also doesn't send it's best players. I don't think a lot of American players think of it as an honor. We don't have dream team anymore going, we have a good team with all-stars but not the best.

Re: Soccer debate - Club vs. National Team
 

[ QUOTE ]
As it is, most of Hollands team play in Holland, and the same is true for Portugal.

[/ QUOTE ]

not even close to being true for portugal, carry on [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]