1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

So it's been a while since I've posted- kind of took a hiatus from Stud for a couple months after a huge bad run- I think I got tired (like I am of NL HE now).

At any rate, I'm trying to remember how to play again. I've thought about this hand a lot, and I'm still unsure of what the proper line is.

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.10

(converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (5.30 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (4.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]????
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks


With his lead out, I believe seat 1 just made two pair. Fine, I can still outdraw him (4s and Ts still being completely live), but I really don't like this multi way pot. So should I re-raise? The other two look very weak so a re-raise should fold them out, but while it protects my hand, it also forced me to lead on 6th, which turns my hand face up if I check, and he's going to bet once he realizes I have aces up. Also, there's the chance that they might fold anyway if I just call (at 1/2- lol?)

Anyway, so I do raise? And if I get it HU, do I lead 6th since I'm going to have to call a bet anyway? Maybe charge a flush draw (though I've discounted this because it doesn't seem likely that a flush draw would lead into a pair of obvious aces on 5th).

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

Hands like these are why I completely fail at Stud HI, seems like raise fold or call are all options.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

I like a raise to try to force the other guys out. You do cite valid reasons for concern, though, so I think you're thinking along the right lines.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

I raise in this spot.

Seat 1 could have 2 pair, trip 5s or even a four flush (he would have seen only 2 clubs go by so his equity is pretty good, unless he is pretty nitty) or a four flush that has a J of clubs in the hole. We are likely behind a fair bit, even so, I raise.

Reasons:

The pot is pretty decent and I am not folding yet.
I don't want to make a winning Aces up and find the guy behind me has made trip 3s or hit a gut shot or something. He is unlikely to reraise with 2 pair fearing your Aces up.

You have to discount trips a bit, as most players would go for a checkraise on fifth, specially as the other boards are not too threatening.

If you get re-raised, well then the call gets interesting.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

I would raise here. The pot is becoming large, and there is some chance that your aces are actually ahead, in which case not raising is a big mistake. If he happens to have two pair, then raising and betting 6th at worst only costs you a small amount of expectation, since you get the pot heads-up and have plenty of outs to improve to a winning hand anyways. The value of isolation might even make it a winning play, but I'm not sure.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

So if we raise and get what we want (2 folds and a call), we pretty much have to lead 6th, right?

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

Why? You're probably behind, and the other guy isn't folding. I think only if you think he'll fold two pair to a river bet should you bet on sixth without improvement.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise in this spot.

Seat 1 could have 2 pair, trip 5s or even a four flush (he would have seen only 2 clubs go by so his equity is pretty good, unless he is pretty nitty) or a four flush that has a J of clubs in the hole. We are likely behind a fair bit, even so, I raise.

Reasons:

The pot is pretty decent and I am not folding yet.
I don't want to make a winning Aces up and find the guy behind me has made trip 3s or hit a gut shot or something. He is unlikely to reraise with 2 pair fearing your Aces up.

You have to discount trips a bit, as most players would go for a checkraise on fifth, specially as the other boards are not too threatening.

If you get re-raised, well then the call gets interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

This explanation is perfect. On 6th you should check call (assuming you both rag). If he check behind on 5th, you can be sure he was on a flush draw, so you check call the river no matter what, and if he bets then you can be sure he has at least two pair, so you fold the river UI or bet if you improve.

If 5th gets 3B, be prepared to call him down unimproved because he could easily be doing this with 2Js+4 clubs.

Either way, if he catches a club on 6th, you should check call, even if you improve. If you make Aces up on the river check call. If you make 3 aces I'd bet out and call a raise if it comes.

Carlos

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why? You're probably behind, and the other guy isn't folding. I think only if you think he'll fold two pair to a river bet should you bet on sixth without improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]Because if I check he bets anyway?

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why? You're probably behind, and the other guy isn't folding. I think only if you think he'll fold two pair to a river bet should you bet on sixth without improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]Because if I check he bets anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you bet 6th, then you are forced to pay off the river unimproved, since you don't know if he is on a flush draw or not. By checking 6th you know where you are at on the river, because he is unlikely to bluff 6th after you raised on 5th.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet 6th, then you are forced to pay off the river unimproved, since you don't know if he is on a flush draw or not. By checking 6th you know where you are at on the river, because he is unlikely to bluff 6th after you raised on 5th.

[/ QUOTE ]Ah, makes sense then. I did check, in fact, but then I felt like my hand was face up and the same money went in the pot.

I didn't consider the information I gained.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

Is the information you potentially gain by checking worth the missed bet against a four-flush?

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is the information you potentially gain by checking worth the missed bet against a four-flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, it is likely he has a 4 flush AND jacks, so you are only a tiny favorite.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

Most players dont bet a small two pair on the river often enough when checked to. Against this player it is right to bet sixth (unless he catches a three flush or open pair), IMO, then check seventh unless you improve.

In general, on sixth, it is better to bet if you know you will call and dont fear a raise.

On seventh, I am inclined to bet 2 pair or better and call a raise (unless i know the player or have a read) .

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

Would you bet sixth with a four flush and jacks if checked to?

If I thought the other guy would laydown unimproved aces on the river, I would bet sixth and seventh unimproved (but I have been known to spew).

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would you bet sixth with a four flush and jacks if checked to?

If I thought the other guy would laydown unimproved aces on the river, I would bet sixth and seventh unimproved (but I have been known to spew).

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting 6th w/ jacks would indeed be a spew.

Anyone who is good enough to laydown UI Aces on the river after putting in a raise on 5th is also good enough to know which players spew chip and which don't. Since you would probably have been marked as a maniac, YOU would get called on the river vs unimproved aces.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

If the Jacks aren't going to bet -- then I think you have to bet sixth rather than give the free card. One bet should go in on sixth, IMO -- better for me to bet. Even though he is correct to call sixth with the draw, it should be bet.

Better to be passive on seventh and check - call, aces up and only bet-call trip aces or better or be really passive and check call anything other than a full house. This way you earn some money on sixth.

I will let you decide if I bet JJ with a four flush when we play or if I bet unimproved on seventh to get you to fold Aces after checking sixth. I think Jeff had a thread long ago about checking sixth and betting seventh as a bluff unimproved.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most players dont bet a small two pair on the river often enough when checked to. Against this player it is right to bet sixth (unless he catches a three flush or open pair), IMO, then check seventh unless you improve.

In general, on sixth, it is better to bet if you know you will call and dont fear a raise.

On seventh, I am inclined to bet 2 pair or better and call a raise (unless i know the player or have a read) .

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in GENERAL it is correct to bet instead of check calling if a raise is unlikely. However, as the preceding discussion has shown, this is CLEARLY not a general situation.

Lets see how we do with your line vs various hands (assuming he checks two pair UI on the river) and how my line does:

-Opponent misses flush draw and hero is UI: both lines loss 1 bet
-he makes a flush on river and hero is UI: your line -2BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he makes flush: your line -3BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he rags river: your line +1BB, my line +0 BB
-he has 2 pair, neither improve: both lines lose 1B, if op bets river, your line loses 2Bs
-he has 2p, hero improves: both lines +2Bs
-he has 2 p and fills:both lines lose 3Bs

Throw in the fact that our kickers are dead, making it less likely for us to improve, and it is very clear that check calling 6th and then playing the river I a suggest is best.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most players dont bet a small two pair on the river often enough when checked to. Against this player it is right to bet sixth (unless he catches a three flush or open pair), IMO, then check seventh unless you improve.

In general, on sixth, it is better to bet if you know you will call and dont fear a raise.

On seventh, I am inclined to bet 2 pair or better and call a raise (unless i know the player or have a read) .

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in GENERAL it is correct to bet instead of check calling if a raise is unlikely. However, as the preceding discussion has shown, this is CLEARLY not a general situation.

Lets see how we do with your line vs various hands (assuming he checks two pair UI on the river) and how my line does:

-Opponent misses flush draw and hero is UI: both lines loss 1 bet
-he makes a flush on river and hero is UI: your line -2BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he makes flush: your line -3BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he rags river: your line +1BB, my line +0 BB
-he has 2 pair, neither improve: both lines lose 1B, if op bets river, your line loses 2Bs
-he has 2p, hero improves: both lines +2Bs
-he has 2 p and fills:both lines lose 3Bs

Throw in the fact that our kickers are dead, making it less likely for us to improve, and it is very clear that check calling 6th and then playing the river I a suggest is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, first we have only one side card gone (the six). Fours and tens are live. He has three flush cards that are gone.
[ QUOTE ]
he makes a flush on river and hero is UI: your line -2BBs, my line -1BB

[/ QUOTE ]

This analysis makes no sense to me. Do you check down AA from fourth if the guy has a flush draw? After all you will save bets when he makes his draw.

So, I charge him to draw out and take the chance that he has two pairs (in which case, I will draw out on him). Note that on fifth I have 9 cards that make me 2 pair or better, and on sixth I have 12 cards (if i catch live) to make 2 pair or better. He has 6 clubs he can catch and a Jack (giving him JJ with a flush draw, his most likely hand) to beat our aces up.

I like betting.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the Jacks aren't going to bet -- then I think you have to bet sixth rather than give the free card. One bet should go in on sixth, IMO -- better for me to bet. Even though he is correct to call sixth with the draw, it should be bet.

Better to be passive on seventh and check - call, aces up and only bet-call trip aces or better or be really passive and check call anything other than a full house. This way you earn some money on sixth.

I will let you decide if I bet JJ with a four flush when we play or if I bet unimproved on seventh to get you to fold Aces after checking sixth. I think Jeff had a thread long ago about checking sixth and betting seventh as a bluff unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are about even money vs a 4 flush and jacks (your cards are dead, do some sims on twodimes.net)

Check calling the river is correct if he check behind 6th because that way you know he is going for a flush. If he bets 6th, then he probably is on 2 pair. He is likely to check behind 2 pair on the river, so you need to bet aces up in this case. As you can see, by betting 6th, the correct play on 7th with Aces up is clear...if you had bet, then you are just guessing on 7th.

Yes, I remember that thread. I was the one who suggested checking 6th and then bluffing the river. If you recall I was talking about playing 75/150 LIVE which is a MUCH different game than 1/2 online. (Live players tend to fold too much on the river).

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most players dont bet a small two pair on the river often enough when checked to. Against this player it is right to bet sixth (unless he catches a three flush or open pair), IMO, then check seventh unless you improve.

In general, on sixth, it is better to bet if you know you will call and dont fear a raise.

On seventh, I am inclined to bet 2 pair or better and call a raise (unless i know the player or have a read) .

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in GENERAL it is correct to bet instead of check calling if a raise is unlikely. However, as the preceding discussion has shown, this is CLEARLY not a general situation.

Lets see how we do with your line vs various hands (assuming he checks two pair UI on the river) and how my line does:

-Opponent misses flush draw and hero is UI: both lines loss 1 bet
-he makes a flush on river and hero is UI: your line -2BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he makes flush: your line -3BBs, my line -1BB
-hero improves on river, he rags river: your line +1BB, my line +0 BB
-he has 2 pair, neither improve: both lines lose 1B, if op bets river, your line loses 2Bs
-he has 2p, hero improves: both lines +2Bs
-he has 2 p and fills:both lines lose 3Bs

Throw in the fact that our kickers are dead, making it less likely for us to improve, and it is very clear that check calling 6th and then playing the river I a suggest is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, first we have only one side card gone (the six). Fours and tens are live. He has three flush cards that are gone.
[ QUOTE ]
he makes a flush on river and hero is UI: your line -2BBs, my line -1BB

[/ QUOTE ]

This analysis makes no sense to me. Do you check down AA from fourth if the guy has a flush draw? After all you will save bets when he makes his draw.

So, I charge him to draw out and take the chance that he has two pairs (in which case, I will draw out on him). Note that on fifth I have 9 cards that make me 2 pair or better, and on sixth I have 12 cards (if i catch live) to make 2 pair or better. He has 6 clubs he can catch and a Jack (giving him JJ with a flush draw, his most likely hand) to beat our aces up.

I like betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct about both the hero and the villain's cards being slightly dead. I think your line would more closer to being correct (but still sub optimal) if the hero's card were totally live.

You have to call a bet on the river with unimproved Aces if you bet 6th to defend against a desperation bluff whereas by checking 6th you know where you are at on the river, so you DON'T have to defend against a bluff

Keep in mind that his MOST likely hand is two pair, NOT the flush draw. I agree that your line is slightly stronger than my line vs the flush draw. But my line is much strong than yours against the most likely hand of 2 pair. Online players will frequently make aggressive value bets on the river with 2 pair, whereas live, they hardly ever do. You line would be okay live against certain players

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

I pretty much only play stud live, so my comments may not be useful online. You can judge that better.

Incidentally, I dont understand (live or not) how, if you know he has a flush draw on sixth and bets seventh, you gain from the check on sixth. He could still be bluffing and you have to decide whether to call or not. The check-check on sixth has done little for you, except lose some value from the call u would have got.

I am betting aces up anyway on the river -- but then I can spew [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Now to some sims:

On sixth we are a solid favorite against a 4 flush and pair hand

pokenum -7s jc 7c 6c js 5c qd - 4s ac ah 6h tc 5d / ad 3s 2s 3d 2d 6d 9h jh qc 7h
7-card Stud Hi: 870 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jc 7c 6c 5c Qd 338 38.85 532 61.15 0 0.00 0.389
4s Ac Tc 5d Ah 6h 532 61.15 338 38.85 0 0.00 0.611

It is upto us to put the bet in the pot in this case.
\

and we are a solid underdog to Js up:
pokenum -7s jc 5s 6c js 5c qd - 4s ac ah 6h tc 5d / ad 3s 2s 3d 2d 6d 9h jh qc 7h
7-card Stud Hi: 870 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 5s Jc 6c 5c Qd 626 71.95 244 28.05 0 0.00 0.720
4s Ac Tc 5d Ah 6h 244 28.05 626 71.95 0 0.00 0.280

And one bet is going in the pot in this way as well.

If we check sixth the money does not go in when we are ahead and goes in when we are behind. No me gusta mucho.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I pretty much only play stud live, so my comments may not be useful online. You can judge that better.

Incidentally, I dont understand (live or not) how, if you know he has a flush draw on sixth and bets seventh, you gain from the check on sixth. He could still be bluffing and you have to decide whether to call or not. The check-check on sixth has done little for you, except lose some value from the call u would have got.

I am betting aces up anyway on the river -- but then I can spew [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Now to some sims:

On sixth we are a solid favorite against a 4 flush and pair hand

pokenum -7s jc 7c 6c js 5c qd - 4s ac ah 6h tc 5d / ad 3s 2s 3d 2d 6d 9h jh qc 7h
7-card Stud Hi: 870 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jc 7c 6c 5c Qd 338 38.85 532 61.15 0 0.00 0.389
4s Ac Tc 5d Ah 6h 532 61.15 338 38.85 0 0.00 0.611

It is upto us to put the bet in the pot in this case.
\

and we are a solid underdog to Js up:
pokenum -7s jc 5s 6c js 5c qd - 4s ac ah 6h tc 5d / ad 3s 2s 3d 2d 6d 9h jh qc 7h
7-card Stud Hi: 870 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 5s Jc 6c 5c Qd 626 71.95 244 28.05 0 0.00 0.720
4s Ac Tc 5d Ah 6h 244 28.05 626 71.95 0 0.00 0.280

And one bet is going in the pot in this way as well.

If we check sixth the money does not go in when we are ahead and goes in when we are behind. No me gusta mucho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please reread my other posts...I have already explained most of the questions you asked.

Thanks for the sims. As we can see from them, when WE are ahead we only 61% equity so we are not giving up THAT much when he checks behind.

The key points to checking 6th is NOT that it is better if he has a flush draw (it is worse) but that his MOST LIKELY hand is two pair. Checking 6th is better against the COMBINED probability of his entire distribution of hands, because it allows you to know exactly where you are at on the river.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

OK. On reflection, I get your river point, sort of;

If he bets sixth we can fold seventh if we dont improve and perhaps raise if we improve. Of course, live many players will not bet two pair again.

I still think it is bad that on sixth our money goes in only when we are behind and does not go in when we are favorite. I think the showdown will be one or two bets. One on sixth for sure (we make sure of that) and maybe one on seventh if he bets or we make Aces up. At least live the bluff raisers on the river are pretty few and far between.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK. On reflection, I get your river point, sort of;

If he bets sixth we can fold seventh if we dont improve and perhaps raise if we improve. Of course, live many players will not bet two pair again.

I still think it is bad that on sixth our money goes in only when we are behind and does not go in when we are favorite. I think the showdown will be one or two bets. One on sixth for sure (we make sure of that) and maybe one on seventh if he bets or we make Aces up. At least live the bluff raisers on the river are pretty few and far between.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. Against most live player who play very straight forward on the river, this play loses most of its value, and betting might be better. If you can reliably check fold on the river with a pair of aces after betting 6th (which you can often do live), then betting 6th is clearly better.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

Carlos, I think your primary argument for check-calling 6th was that you learn whether he has two pair or a flush draw, which allows you to save a bet on the river if he bets both streets. But, you also claimed that he will check behind two pair on the river. If this is a case, then a bluff is more likely since he is now checking more hands that beat aces rather than betting them, and because the hands that he would be betting in this situation aren't very likely anyways. In that case, could it not be correct to pay off in on the river anyways after check-calling 6th?

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Carlos, I think your primary argument for check-calling 6th was that you learn whether he has two pair or a flush draw, which allows you to save a bet on the river if he bets both streets. But, you also claimed that he will check behind two pair on the river. If this is a case, then a bluff is more likely since he is now checking more hands that beat aces rather than betting them, and because the hands that he would be betting in this situation aren't very likely anyways. In that case, could it not be correct to pay off in on the river anyways after check-calling 6th?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is the main argument. I didn't claim that he would usually check behind on the river with two pair. I said that online people will often bet 2 pair when checked to on the river, but live they sometimes don't. If the hero plans on paying off the river no matter what, then he has to bet on 6th.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

I am wondering why you think his most likely hand is two pair. Is that from a Bayesian count of starting hands?

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering why you think his most likely hand is two pair. Is that from a Bayesian count of starting hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it is because that is normally the only hand that people donk bet 5th st. with in a 4 way pot when they have a ragged board and it looks like there is a guy with aces sitting right behind him. They would usually check call or maybe check raise with a flush draw and check raise with trips.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

OK. Makes sense.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

Thanks for the discussion, guys. I'm glad to see that this was a tricky enough decision that I was correct to ponder it.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

The discussion of 6th is great, and really illustrates why you must think of each situation individually. One thing that maybe didn't get said clearly is that 5th is an easy, easy raise. I play these loose low limit games and blowing out the two weak looking hands and getting some dead money in the pot more than compensates for the possibility you are against 2 pair (or occaisonally hidden trips) here.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that maybe didn't get said clearly is that 5th is an easy, easy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]I actually thought so, but when I got it heads up on 6th I kind of felt lost and wondered if I'd blundered on 5th.

This discussion has helped me re-enforce that yes, I still know what I'm doing (somewhat) and 6th street posts have been VERY helpful in helping me thing about situations where I'm in with a likely 2nd best hand OOP.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

This is a pretty cake raise on 5th street.

Jeff

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty cake raise on 5th street.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for clearing that up for us...

;-)

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

Ok, I've been on vacation for a while.


But here are my thoughts on the hand.


If you raise 5th you should check/call 6th ONLY when facing a relatively straight forward player. Carlos' suggestion to check/call relies on the possibility that your opponent may reveal his own hand by checking behind on 6th (a pretty serious mistake IMO).

If your opponent was very aggressive he might do 2 things you won't like. ONE, he may 3-bet 5th forcing you to pay more to isolate. TWO, he will probably bet 6th with his bricked flushes, forcing you to pay off his made two-pairs.


In light of this, you could consider a call on 5th. There are upsides to a 5th street call. FIRST, you need to realize that in a 4 handed pot seat 3 and seat 4 have very little equity because you and seat 1 both have likely edges. Since seat 3 and 4 don't have much equity when combined and the pot is smallish you don't have to auto-isolate because there isn't a ton to be gained pot equity wise. SECOND, seats 3 and 4 may not be calling 1 bet anyway. So you don't have to assume that just calling forces you to play a 4 way pot instead of a 2 way pot.

Re: 1/2 Stud High: 4AA 5th Street Decision
 

I dunno ... I don't think this is near as easy as a raise as many others think for the reasons jon posted. Some other random musings ... Seat 1 can count on you betting 5th if checked to with a fairly high probability so the fact that he led into you imo discounts the probability he has a flush draw, pair + FD, etc. cause I would expect a c/r from them frequently. But ... I'm not confident enough in that to fold unimproved aces anywhere AND what I really don't want is for him to bet/3bet anything he has and put me in a crappy spot where I can't do anything but call down b/c I have no read on him and I'm OOP and I can't jack 6th and I can't risk a bad fold on 7th. I'd almost rather have the other players in there truthfully, unless you're worried they're gonna make some weird 2 pair to crack your AA I want them chasing 2 outers cause I don't expect to show down AA here and win often at all.