Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

A rewrite of TOP

Now don't misunderstand me here. I love this book already. I love this book more than any other book on poker that I own. It's a masterpiece, and I think it remains the best book that 2+2 has ever published.

Ten years ago, I think there would be little argument about this but these days, it's a different story. There are so many players today who have gotten started in poker in the past 3-4 years, and much of TOP just doesn't speak to them the same as it did me.

I recently started re-reading TOP for the first time in a few years and immediately it occurred to me why. The book is getting dated. Not the concepts, of course, but many of the examples and the general context. Even as I look at the terrific thread where so many 2+2ers designed so many great covers, I look at TOPs plain bright yellow cover and think it needs updating.

Also, it seems like this book is David's Magnum Opus and there's more to say. NL can be addressed more and the internet should be mentioned. As it stands, this book is in danger of falling by the wayside - of ending up as another classic like 'education of a poker player' that nobody really reads.

Please don't let this happen. The book has been re-written before and renamed before. Perhaps that is the source of it's strength. That it has been a kind of long term work in progress.

I'd say a nice foreward or two by some greats telling just how important this book is, a few more chapters, and some updated hand examples and context would be about right.

Now, I won't be too sad if you don't do this this year, or even next year. As I said, I love the book already. But please tell me I'll see this one day.

Regards
Brad S

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

In Sklansky's Special Forum, he offered a new edition of this book as one of the choices posters could recommend he write in the future.

I believe an algebra book beat it out though.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

Sklansky offered an 'Introduction to TOP'. Because he believes the problem is it's too advanced rather than elementary and poorly-written.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because he believes the problem is it's too advanced rather than elementary and poorly-written.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said anything about it being elementary or poorly written.

It is dated. Here, I'll find an example. Wow, page 3

[ QUOTE ]
Most home games and most games in Las Vegas, Gardena, California, and elsewhere are limit games such as $1-$3 Seven card stud

[/ QUOTE ]

Much of the book is perfect and should remain as is. As I hope I have made clear by now, I think it is a masterpeice and the best book on poker ever written.

I'm just wishing it was more applicable to this new world of poker. And when I get really wishful, expanded by about 100-200 pages. I'd love it to include NL topics, today's games, and at least a cursory mention of internet play (even if just in some examples).

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

The yellow is definitely ugly. Make it black.

Internet play with optimal multi-tabling ideas, adjustments for moving down into micro limits regarding opponents attitudes about small games and your table image, as well as moving up. Site selection. Software selection (Poker Tracker, Poker Ace Hud etc). Adjusting from live play to Internet play and vice versa. These things are becoming part of the basic considerations about poker games and how to play. Though, because none of this is about the structure and mathematics of poker, it could just as easily be put into other texts like Getting Started, Small Stakes, Poker Essays or what-have-you.

An entire book on PLO would be great, too.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

David probably wouldn't know much about multi-tabling online I'm guessing nor all the stuff about PT, PAHud, etc.
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
I also don't think he would know too much about adjusting from live play to internet play either.

As for Aleo's desire that he include some No Limit in a revised Theory of Poker: Didn't he already pretty much do this with NLTAP?

I remember back when they were still working on it and I don't think had a title yet Ed Miller described it something like a 'Theory of Poker for No Limit'.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The yellow is definitely ugly. Make it black.

Internet play with optimal multi-tabling ideas, adjustments for moving down into micro limits regarding opponents attitudes about small games and your table image, as well as moving up. Site selection. Software selection (Poker Tracker, Poker Ace Hud etc). Adjusting from live play to Internet play and vice versa. These things are becoming part of the basic considerations about poker games and how to play. Though, because none of this is about the structure and mathematics of poker, it could just as easily be put into other texts like Getting Started, Small Stakes, Poker Essays or what-have-you.

An entire book on PLO would be great, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely nothing in this post has the slightest thing to do with poker theory. Except, of course, the suggestion of a black cover. That would certainly make the book much more relevant to the game as it has evolved into the 21st century.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

extra chapters like equity and hand ranges and free showdown raises and metagame and whatnot.
also there are chapters that could use addons, for example the "exploiting your opponents mistakes chapter".A complete chapter on composing a preflop strategy would be nice.
maybe examples and concepts from games like omaha, big bet poker, hi/lo poker, badugi,triple draw etc.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for Aleo's desire that he include some No Limit in a revised Theory of Poker: Didn't he already pretty much do this with NLTAP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I thought about this a lot as I was posting. I guess I just want TOP to stay the bible of poker for me. Other books are great and all. Really, David did say all I could hope for him to say in NLTAP. I just wish it were incorporated into TOP somehow.

Maybe I should just go take TOP, NLTAP, the first 140 pages of TPFAP, and a few of David's best essays and tape them all together in a nice black cover. Then I suppose I'd have the 800 page masterpeice I'm looking for.

So I see your point. Still, I suppose I'd like to see a revised TOP for other reason's too. And besides, I'm sure it would look nicer than my duct tape poker bible.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

I like the cover.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The yellow is definitely ugly. Make it black.

Internet play with optimal multi-tabling ideas, adjustments for moving down into micro limits regarding opponents attitudes about small games and your table image, as well as moving up. Site selection. Software selection (Poker Tracker, Poker Ace Hud etc). Adjusting from live play to Internet play and vice versa. These things are becoming part of the basic considerations about poker games and how to play. Though, because none of this is about the structure and mathematics of poker, it could just as easily be put into other texts like Getting Started, Small Stakes, Poker Essays or what-have-you.

An entire book on PLO would be great, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely nothing in this post has the slightest thing to do with poker theory. Except, of course, the suggestion of a black cover. That would certainly make the book much more relevant to the game as it has evolved into the 21st century.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theory of poker is absolutely a jewel as is. I also agree the above post has nothing to do with theory at all.
I did not understand where the thought process was coming from. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

They make many different colors of duct tape.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

There is a precedent. Hold'em for Advance Players--21st Century Edition.

There's very good reasons for TOP to be looked at again. Poker theory has evolved since publishing. Who plays Razz outside of the WSOP?

Even King James thought the Bible could be refreshed.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

Hi Jack:

No. HPFAP got expanded into the 21st Century Edition because I had continued to keep extensive notes and worked with David for my own play. Nothing like that exists for TOP.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

"Who plays Razz outside of the WSOP?"

Hi Jack,

We had a razz game (with a waiting list to get into the game) at the Orleans the other night. Stud-8 and PLO has been going every night (PLO sometimes starts late though).


I think most (all?) of the players in my razz game had never read TOP (God love'em).


Best Wishes

Howard

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who plays Razz outside of the WSOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

cough cough cough.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

Razz is a good game to have as part of a mix, but I don't think I'd like just playing Razz.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The yellow is definitely ugly. Make it black.

Internet play with optimal multi-tabling ideas, adjustments for moving down into micro limits regarding opponents attitudes about small games and your table image, as well as moving up. Site selection. Software selection (Poker Tracker, Poker Ace Hud etc). Adjusting from live play to Internet play and vice versa. These things are becoming part of the basic considerations about poker games and how to play. Though, because none of this is about the structure and mathematics of poker, it could just as easily be put into other texts like Getting Started, Small Stakes, Poker Essays or what-have-you.

An entire book on PLO would be great, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely nothing in this post has the slightest thing to do with poker theory. Except, of course, the suggestion of a black cover. That would certainly make the book much more relevant to the game as it has evolved into the 21st century.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's why

"Though, because none of this is about the structure and mathematics of poker, it could just as easily be put into other texts like Getting Started, Small Stakes, Poker Essays or what-have-you"

...was at the end. But thank you for the redundancy.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for Aleo's desire that he include some No Limit in a revised Theory of Poker: Didn't he already pretty much do this with NLTAP?

[/ QUOTE ]

SEE YOU GET IT! For the people that criticize NLTAP, I think they miss the fact that it basically is TOP for NLHE. The book teaches us how to think about the game much like what TOP does for limit poker. When I read it my mind kept blowing up just like it did when I read TOP years ago.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Razz is a good game to have as part of a mix, but I don't think I'd like just playing Razz.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can more profitable than you give it credit for. There are some baaaad players at that game out there.

Now, some won't play due to boredom and/or the constant starting perfect but ending up triple-paired. That I can sorta' understand.

Re: Mason, can we ever expect to see...
 

I must write this at least once a week, but NLHETAP has definitely improved my thinking away from the table. Now, if I'd just apply what I think about at the table, all would be well.

Didn't bet enough last week...stupid river...mumble...mumble... [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]