Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

Apparently he will leave in place the fine and probation, but no prison. Fall out will be interesting.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

Its about time.

Yep......Bush is a [censored]
 

Once it was clear that Fitzfong was not charging anyone with outing a CIA agent. The whole process should have ended there.

Washington DC in HEAVILY DEMOCRAT and no Republican is going to get a fair trial in that town from a DC jury. Bush is political STUUUUPID! I wonder is Bush is a Democrat mole whose goal is to destroy the Repub party.... Either that or he is a complete moron...

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently he will leave in place the fine and probation, but no prison. Fall out will be interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should have been pardoned IMO. I'm really glad that Bush did this because the way this case went down deserves a lot more scrutiny. It will be interesting to see how much people like Reid, Pelosi, Schumer, Leahy, etc. scream about this. Hope it's loud and shrill so a debate ensues about the merits of this case and it gets alot more scrutiny. I'm thinking the Democrats make a couple of noises but don't say too much. I really hope I am wrong.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

My guess is that this will displease conservative and liberals alike, perhaps conservatives more.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

Well, I do not have a problem with Libby's jail time being commuted.

I DO however have a problem with Bush letting our border guards sit in jail for shooting a drug smuggler in the rear end and then putting the border guards in jail.

This outrages me!

obg

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is that this will displease conservative and liberals alike, perhaps conservatives more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps, that would still be good IMO maybe even better if more are displeased.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

Boy I sure don't understand the sentiment that he should be pardoned. Wasn't he involved in the cover-up of Richard Armitage leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent? I don't care if you're right, left, Dem, Repub, black, white, yellow, or have 10 eyes and 2 toes, participating in such activity is treasonous and should result in whatever the max for the offense is. Period.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
....Wasn't he involved in the cover-up of Richard Armitage leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent? ...

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I do not have a problem with Libby's jail time being commuted.

I DO however have a problem with Bush letting our border guards sit in jail for shooting a drug smuggler in the rear end and then putting the border guards in jail.

This outrages me!

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Lou Dobbs gimmick account?

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

It's good to have powerful friends... who are stupid.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
....Wasn't he involved in the cover-up of Richard Armitage leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent? ...

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humor me ... how would you describe his involvement in this sordid affair?

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
....Wasn't he involved in the cover-up of Richard Armitage leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent? ...

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

The usual explanation is somewhere between "Clinton did it too!" and "ooh, look, shiny!"

Humor me ... how would you describe his involvement in this sordid affair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

standard

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

I guess lying to a grand jury isn't a crime anymore. Is this the 'personal responsibility' with which conservatives beat the rest of us over the head?

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
....Wasn't he involved in the cover-up of Richard Armitage leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent? ...

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humor me ... how would you describe his involvement in this sordid affair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plame was neither covert nor did he hide anything about Armitage's linking of the name. Fitzgerald knew Armitage had leaked the name to Novak before he asked Libby quesiton uno. I'm sure you'll dredge up some links stating that Plame was indeed covert. Funny that Armitage didn't get changed with any crime in fact Libby was the only person charged. It was a perjery trap pure and simple. Here's an article that states the issue better than I:

Fitzgerald never had any reason to believe that there was a crime to be solved in the "CIA leak case." Nothing in the U.S. code purports to make talking about Valerie Plame a crime. Fitzgerald never had any legitimate grounds for pursuing a criminal investigation because he never had even the theoretical possibility of a crime to investigate.


His own conduct strongly suggests that he knew this from the beginning. If Fitzgerald really believed that there was something criminal about revealing Valerie Plame's identity he would have filed charges against at least two defendants on the day he took over the case. Richard Armitage and Robert Novak were both guilty of discussing Plame and Fitzgerald knew it on day one. But he filed no charges. Why not? Probably because he knew that neither Armitage nor Novak nor anyone else had violated any law by talking about Valerie Plame.


Since Fitzgerald had no crime to investigate, the sole purpose of his investigation, even before it became his, was to keep asking questions until discrepancies in the testimony made it possible to convince a bent jury that somebody important lied under oath. This despicable game is a clear violation of the Fifth Amendment and it cannot result in a lawful conviction for perjury.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
....Wasn't he involved in the cover-up of Richard Armitage leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent? ...

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humor me ... how would you describe his involvement in this sordid affair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plame was neither covert nor did he hide anything about Armitage's linking of the name. Fitzgerald knew Armitage had leaked the name to Novak before he asked Libby quesiton uno. I'm sure you'll dredge up some links stating that Plame was indeed covert. Funny that Armitage didn't get changed with any crime in fact Libby was the only person charged. It was a perjery trap pure and simple. Here's an article that states the issue better than I:

Fitzgerald never had any reason to believe that there was a crime to be solved in the "CIA leak case." Nothing in the U.S. code purports to make talking about Valerie Plame a crime. Fitzgerald never had any legitimate grounds for pursuing a criminal investigation because he never had even the theoretical possibility of a crime to investigate.


His own conduct strongly suggests that he knew this from the beginning. If Fitzgerald really believed that there was something criminal about revealing Valerie Plame's identity he would have filed charges against at least two defendants on the day he took over the case. Richard Armitage and Robert Novak were both guilty of discussing Plame and Fitzgerald knew it on day one. But he filed no charges. Why not? Probably because he knew that neither Armitage nor Novak nor anyone else had violated any law by talking about Valerie Plame.


Since Fitzgerald had no crime to investigate, the sole purpose of his investigation, even before it became his, was to keep asking questions until discrepancies in the testimony made it possible to convince a bent jury that somebody important lied under oath. This despicable game is a clear violation of the Fifth Amendment and it cannot result in a lawful conviction for perjury.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be hard to believe, but sometimes when you're conducting an investigation you have to question more than one person about what happened.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Plame was neither covert

[/ QUOTE ]

O RLY?

Plame was ‘covert’ agent at time of name leak: Newly released unclassified document details CIA employment

Score another one for the right-wing noise machine: Al Qaeda and Saddam were linked, Ray Nagin left 2000 school buses parked in a schoolyard during Katrina, Plame wasn't covert, hamburgers eat people, up is down, etc.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

LOL, not on your life!

Lou Dobbs, get real.....Me, I am a Fox fan (sexy morning gals!).

obg



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I do not have a problem with Libby's jail time being commuted.

I DO however have a problem with Bush letting our border guards sit in jail for shooting a drug smuggler in the rear end and then putting the border guards in jail.

This outrages me!

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Lou Dobbs gimmick account?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

I thought I read that Armitage wasn't charged because Libby's actions rendered it basically impossible to charge him with a crime. If this is correct, then your idea that this was nothing more than "a perjury trap" makes no sense (and I've never heard of a "perjury trap" to begin with).

In addition, care to cite the source of that article? I trust it is from an unbiased source.

And the idea that this is all the work of some rogue US Attorney who had some vendetta against the government -- in an era when merely glancing wrong at the government got US Attorneys fired -- is preposterous.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

I think it's fairly clear that the prosecutor might have been a little overzealous. But it's also very clear that Libby lied under oath and perjured himself. He committed a crime regardless of what he was testifying about.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, care to cite the source of that article? I trust it is from an unbiased source.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not an article; it's an excerpt from a post on some right-wing blog -- close to the end, about 6 paragraphs from the bottom:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...president.html

The American Thinker

"The American Thinker is a daily internet publication with articles on the topics of national security, economics, diplomacy, culture, and military strategy[1]. The articles published are often mentioned on The Rush Limbaugh Show."

Why rely on unbiased news sources when right-wing propaganda reaffirms what we already know? You know, stuff like Plame not covert, Saddam = bin Laden, Iraq had nukes pointed at us, etc. etc. LDO

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In addition, care to cite the source of that article? I trust it is from an unbiased source.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not an article; it's an excerpt from a post on some right-wing blog -- close to the end, about 6 paragraphs from the bottom:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...president.html

The American Thinker

"The American Thinker is a daily internet publication with articles on the topics of national security, economics, diplomacy, culture, and military strategy[1]. The articles published are often mentioned on The Rush Limbaugh Show."

Why rely on unbiased news sources when right-wing propaganda reaffirms what we already know? You know, stuff like Plame not covert, Saddam = bin Laden, Iraq had nukes pointed at us, etc. etc. LDO

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying Richard Armitage did commit a crime.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

If Bush thinks this sentence is "outrageous", why doesn't he pardon the kid, Genarlow Wilson since the justice system in the south seems to have been created by cavemen and the taliban.

He would be worthy of getting his sentence commuted--better yet, a full pardon. No one deserves the [censored] that kid has gone through. The DA should also be forced to resign or spend 5 years in prison too for his overzealousness.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying Richard Armitage did commit a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one has been charged with releasing Plame's identity, including Armitage, the actual leaker -- true enough -- but I'm not sure what that has to do with Libby obstructing justice, lying to the federal investigators and perjuring himself.

Nor does the fact that no one has been charged with releasing Plame's identity mean that she wasn't covert, unless you think that the fact that no one has been convicted of murdering Nicole Brown Simpson means she wasn't murdered.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
If Bush thinks this sentence is "outrageous", why doesn't he pardon the kid, Genarlow Wilson since the justice system in the south seems to have been created by cavemen and the taliban.

He would be worthy of getting his sentence commuted--better yet, a full pardon. No one deserves the [censored] that kid has gone through. The DA should also be forced to resign or spend 5 years in prison too for his overzealousness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something about the constitution and federalism, I think.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I read that Armitage wasn't charged because Libby's actions rendered it basically impossible to charge him with a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Fitzgerald knew Armitage was the source of the leak before he asked Libby question uno. Why would it be impossible to charge him?

[ QUOTE ]
If this is correct, then your idea that this was nothing more than "a perjury trap" makes no sense (and I've never heard of a "perjury trap" to begin with).

[/ QUOTE ]

So what your saying is that since Fitzgerald knew that Armitage leaked Plame's name before he asked Libby one question about the case he decided that Libby was the person that needed investigation, not Armitage the one person that you apparently assert comitted a crime.



[ QUOTE ]
In addition, care to cite the source of that article? I trust it is from an unbiased source.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me the specific statement where I claimed it was unbiased.

[ QUOTE ]
And the idea that this is all the work of some rogue US Attorney who had some vendetta against the government -- in an era when merely glancing wrong at the government got US Attorneys fired -- is preposterous.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he was appointed as a special prosecuter. He found out very early, basically in the initial stages of the investigation, that there was no crime committed in the leaking of the Plame's name. Not a good career move to be appointed a special prosecutor with a big budget and shut down the investigation almost immediately.

He knew the source of the leak from the earliest stages of the investigation and also determined that he had no case that he could prosecute for leaking the info. Yet the investigation continued into what? Whatever the special prosecuter wants to investigate, ask Kenneth Starr.

On a Perjury Trap

Other courts and noted scholarship have expressed similar concerns about the sinister misuse of the justice system. See United States v. Chen, 933 F.2d 793, 796-797 (9th Cir. 1986) (a perjury trap is created when the government calls a witness before the grand jury for the primary purpose of obtaining testimony from him in order to prosecute him later for perjury); United States v. Simone, 627 F. Supp. 1264, 1268 (D. N.J. 1986) (perjury trap involves "the deliberate use of a judicial proceeding to secure perjured testimony, a concept in itself abhorrent"); United States v. Crisconi, 520 F. Supp. 915, 920 (D. Del. 1981) (expressing concern over the government's use of its investigatory powers to secure a perjury indictment on matters which are neither material nor germane to a legitimate ongoing grand jury investigation). Some courts question whether such governmental conduct might violate a defendant's fifth amendment right to due process, Simone, 627 F. Supp. at 1267-72, or be an abuse of grand jury proceedings, Crisconi, 520 F. Supp. at 920. See generally, Gershman, The "Perjury Trap", 129 U. Pa. L. Rev. 624, 683 (1981).

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying Richard Armitage did commit a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one has been charged with releasing Plame's identity, including Armitage, the actual leaker -- true enough -- but I'm not sure what that has to do with Libby obstructing justice, lying to the federal investigators and perjuring himself.

Nor does the fact that no one has been charged with releasing Plame's identity mean that she wasn't covert, unless you think that the fact that no one has been convicted of murdering Nicole Brown Simpson means she wasn't murdered.

[/ QUOTE ]


You dodged the question I asked you as it can be answered with a simple yes or a no. I'll take your non answer as a no you don't think Armitage committed a crime.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

Bush will go down as the ______________ president ever...

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

The whole thing was one big joke...seriously there was nothing to go on from the beginning and I am glad he got commute...and to anyone crying about it just go back to your last President and see what happened when charges like this were brought up

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
You dodged the question I asked you as it can be answered with a simple yes or a no. I'll take your non answer as a no you don't think Armitage committed a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is almost irrelevant. You propping it up as relevant is the same right-wing canard that attempts to claim Plame wasn't convert.

As for what I think, I'm inclined to believe that Armitage didn't commit any crime. I suspect Fitzgerald decided not to prosecute Armitage because he accepted Armitage's claim that he didn't know Plame was a covert operative. According to all reports, Armitage was cooperative during the whole investigation, so he didn't lie to federal investigators or the grand jury, hence why he wasn't charged with anything -- unlike Libby, who did lie to investigators and the grand jury.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

I am inclined to believe that Fitzgerald believes that Dick Cheney is guilty of something but was unable to prove it in part because of Libby's lying.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am inclined to believe that Fitzgerald believes that Dick Cheney is guilty of something but was unable to prove it in part because of Libby's lying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there were a couple of jurors who noted after the case that they shared the same suspicion.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

First of all, who cares if there was an original crime or not? Lying under oath is perjury- there is no "except when some people believe there was no underlying crime."

But, let's go with that argument.

The Bush appointed USA said there was an underlying crime.

The Bush appointed Judge handling the case agreed, and ripped Libby a new one about it.

The GOP judges hearing Libby's appeal also agreed.

Just ten years ago, lying under oath in a matter where there was no 'underlying crime,' was considered to be at the level of high crimes and misdemeanors and was enough to impeach a president.

Oh, yeah. A DEMOCRATIC president. I forgot laws don't apply to republicans.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am inclined to believe that Fitzgerald believes that Dick Cheney is guilty of something but was unable to prove it in part because of Libby's lying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, so? That has nothing to do with whether or not Libby lied under oath, of which there is no doubt.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bush will go down as the ______________ president ever...

[/ QUOTE ]

Great, or greatest?

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You dodged the question I asked you as it can be answered with a simple yes or a no. I'll take your non answer as a no you don't think Armitage committed a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is almost irrelevant. You propping it up as relevant is the same right-wing canard that attempts to claim Plame wasn't convert.

[/ QUOTE ]

As for what I think, I'm inclined to believe that Armitage didn't commit any crime. I suspect Fitzgerald decided not to prosecute Armitage because he accepted Armitage's claim that he didn't know Plame was a covert operative. According to all reports, Armitage was cooperative during the whole investigation, so he didn't lie to federal investigators or the grand jury, hence why he wasn't charged with anything -- unlike Libby, who did lie to investigators and the grand jury.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a long answer to this but alas it took too long to enter and I don't have the motivation to do it again. I'll just say that I believe the alleged crime that triggered the investigation is very relevant and that the finding that no crime was committed at the very beginning of the investigation is also very relevent. I realize that Fitzgerald had the investigative powers in being appointed a special prosecuter but I have a major problem with the government conducting investigations in this way. I've also gone on record many times on this forum in criticising the Starr investigation of Clinton. I find it ironic that those people who support the idea that lying before a grand jury under all circumstances is wrong when condemning Libby. I'm fairly certain many of them were screaming about the Starr investigation of Clinton. Also I'd like to see them go before a grand jury and give testimonry for eight hours about anything a prosecuter wanted to question them about and see if that prosecuter could trip them up. Anyway we could debate the merits of the case against Libby ad infinutem. The governments case against Libby claimed that he lied as to where he learned the identity of Valerie Plame from. Libby claimed he learned it from reporters and the government claimed he learned it from government sources. Here's a link to a Chicago Tribune story claiming that you could find out everything you wanted to know about Valerie Plane working for the CIA on the internet for crying out loud.

Internet Blows CIA Cover

She is 52 years old, married, grew up in the Kansas City suburbs and now lives in Virginia, in a new three-bedroom house.

Anyone who can qualify for a subscription to one of the online services that compile public information also can learn that she is a CIA employee who, over the past decade, has been assigned to several American embassies in Europe.

The CIA asked the Tribune not to publish her name because she is a covert operative, and the newspaper agreed. But unbeknown to the CIA, her affiliation and those of hundreds of men and women like her have somehow become a matter of public record, thanks to the Internet.

When the Tribune searched a commercial online data service, the result was a virtual directory of more than 2,600 CIA employees, 50 internal agency telephone numbers and the locations of some two dozen secret CIA facilities around the United States.



IMO Fitzgerald had no reason to continue the investigation after he knew that Armitage was the source of the leak and he determined that he didn't have a case. Hope I didn't take too long writing this answer because I'm not motivated to write it another one to your post.


Libby Grand Jury Testimony Summary

Full Transcript

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, who cares if there was an original crime or not? Lying under oath is perjury- there is no "except when some people believe there was no underlying crime."

But, let's go with that argument.

The Bush appointed USA said there was an underlying crime.

The Bush appointed Judge handling the case agreed, and ripped Libby a new one about it.

The GOP judges hearing Libby's appeal also agreed.

Just ten years ago, lying under oath in a matter where there was no 'underlying crime,' was considered to be at the level of high crimes and misdemeanors and was enough to impeach a president.

Oh, yeah. A DEMOCRATIC president. I forgot laws don't apply to republicans.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're fine with the Star investigation of Clinton. I'm not.

Re: Bush to commute Libby sentence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bush will go down as the ______________ president ever...

[/ QUOTE ]

Great, or greatest?

[/ QUOTE ]
lol beat me to it.

Huh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I read that Armitage wasn't charged because Libby's actions rendered it basically impossible to charge him with a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]
<slapping head with disbelief that someone could state this>
Armitage hates Bush.... He is in no way a supporter of Bush. Fitzfong knew that Armitage leaked Plame's identity to Novak from day-1 of the investigation. Source: Novak himself.

Armitage got a free pass from the Dems and Fitzfong because he was anti-Bush. No one with a rational mind could claim this prosecution of Libby was non-partisan while Armitage gets to walk without any consequences.... It was Armitage's BIG MOUTH which started this entire episode....