4 High Is the Nuts
 

Smart Tournament Peoples:

Don't play a lot of torunaments, but went down with a friend for a $200 buy-in and are vigourously fighting about this hand.

92 starting players, 2K starting chips, hero has about $3400 or so. Say 50 players left. Blinds at $200-$400 with some sort of ante.

Assume average tourney donkness.

MP1 raises to $2K.
MP2 calls.

Hero wakes up on the button with 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero . . .

Some thoughts:

The arguments for both sides are obviously.

All-in: You have better than 30% equity and really need to triple up given the blinds.
Fold: Eh, you have 4 high, you are probably getting just around the right equity but why not wait to be the agressor.

Is this purely a math question? Someone enlighten me.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

realize that 2k raise is 5x big blinds. you have absolutely zero fold equity and are getting it in with way the worst of it. if villain had raised say 800-1000, then you could have an argument to try and steal simply because of your fold equity.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

Way the worst of it--- um yes ---- but what about the money odds?

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Way the worst of it--- um yes ---- but what about the money odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a garbage hand. A better plan would be to go all in with any two cards next time it folds around to you. Then there's a chance that everyone folds, and you increase your stack 25% or so without having to win a showdown.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Way the worst of it--- um yes ---- but what about the money odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a garbage hand. A better plan would be to go all in with any two cards next time it folds around to you. Then there's a chance that everyone folds, and you increase your stack 25% or so without having to win a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep. pushing here is just dumb. you can find a way better spot to put your money in. I would say *maybe* if you had enough to isolate against one other player so as to be tons of dead money in the pot. but here both players are going to call.

bottom line, it is +EV to push any two next hand if all fold to you

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

Pot odds give you 3-1. But do you really think you have a better than 1-4 chance to win with this hand against someone who bet 5XBB and someone who called that bet?

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

No, I don't. Friend does and I think it is sort of close. If they both have aces, we have around 36% equity. On their full range of possible hands we have over 25%.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

this sucks so hard. you have plenty of chips left to steal blinds by pushing first in rather than getting your chips into a 3-way pot with 4-high. yeah, i mean, there's a fair chance you have 2 live cards, but if either of them have an overpair you're in terrible shape. i guess 43s plays better multiple-ways than it does heads up, but not nearly enough to overcome how crappy it is here.

fold. if this is "waking up" with a hand, hero can go back to sleep.

What if he has only $2500
 

I may have mis-posted. What if he only has $2500? With blinds of 200-400 and a 50 ante he only has an M of about 2.2

Re: What if he has only $2500
 

If Hero was the BB, then maybe it's a call on that stack size. As the BU, with a few chances to likely push all-in in an unopened pot with ATC before he's back in the blinds, still folding.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

I don't think this is close.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

Why not? Say you have 35% equity- why not just take the mathematical advantage?

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

This isn't even close to close.






Unless your opponents both have 22. In that case you'd be getting a great price.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not? Say you have 35% equity- why not just take the mathematical advantage?

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you have 35% equity?

If they both call, you will only have ~25% equity against the top 17% of hands. That includes all pairs and all broadway cards. Are their ranges wider than that? I think not with a 5xBB raise and a 5xBB cold call.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

You know what...nevermind. I change my response. Please shove 43s here everytime. Thanks.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

Pearls before swine, Sherman?

Re: What if he has only $2500
 

This post made me laugh. Obv fold and there is no other good way to play this.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pearls before swine, Sherman?

[/ QUOTE ]

Under the assumption that you are referring to the comic strip, yes. I am the Rat.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

Easy fold. No chance in hell you get either the raiser or the caller to fold their hands. You'll have 43s in a multiway pot.

There are much better spots to work with.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

Hi Sherman,

Actually no, I was thinking of Matthew 7:6, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet."

Sorry for being obscure. Luv your posts; keep 'em coming.

Re: 4 High Is the Nuts
 

It could possibly be alright if you knew one of them would isolate. With appropriate stack sizes and reads, that might be very likely. Without guaranteed isolation though, this is a fold.