free Nate
 

so Nate just got permabanned on 2+2, and given his posting history (and that he's sitting next to me on the couch) I assume it's for this thread where he questions 2+2's book editing:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD

The reason given for his ban: "Had enough."

Seriously? That's it? "Had enough"?! I guess Mason doesn't really welcome open debate or expression of ideas regarding his product. Real open-minded of him. Wouldn't want to improve it or anything.

Maybe we can let him back in if he apologizes for expressing an opinion, a la Paul Phillips.

Seriously, this is a complete joke. Nate is a great poster in numerous forums and banning him because someone peed in Mason's coffee is nothing short of absurd.

I could continue to rant on this at length but I think you get the idea. Free Nate!

Re: free Nate
 

This is the BP Nate right? If so, he's one of the best posters around and to have banned him for that thread is tyranny.

Re: free Nate
 

nope it's the BAMF Nate.

FREE NATE!

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the BP Nate right?

[/ QUOTE ]
If by "BP" you mean "Baseball Prospectus", then no, that's Nate tha Great. If you mean, uh, just about anything else, then yeah, probably.

Either way, this

[ QUOTE ]
he's one of the best posters around and to have banned him for that thread is tyranny.

[/ QUOTE ]

is definitely true.

Re: free Nate
 

Nate was a good poster. I liked Nate's posts. Free Nate.

Re: free Nate
 

I think he went way to far in that thread, at what point do you think it is a good idea to tell the Grand Poohbah, He doesn't understand English?

He challenged Mason to a heads up editing match, LOL.

Re: free Nate
 

lol at the hu editing match

Re: free Nate
 

In that thread:

1) Nate had a really good point
2)He went way too far.


If anything, maybe the thread could have been locked or something, but Nate contributes way too much to ban him for this.

Free Nate!

Re: free Nate
 

After reading the thread, I don't see how it could result in a permaban. It appears someone took his ball and told him to go home.

Re: free Nate
 

Definitely free Nate. He is an excellent poster with a long history both in the forums and the magazine. In the offending thread, he did his best to remain respectful at all times while asking what he (and I) believe to be an important question. The question boiled down to "would it be more profitable for 2+2 to do more rigorous copy editing?" He and Mason clearly disagree and Nate was as respectful as possible, while asking this question. (I'm not sure where I stand on that, but selfishly, it would make the books more readable and improve my game and bottom line). He did not attacks or throw around personal insults. I find his resulting ban to be the ultimate example of a person taking their ball and going home (coincidentally, what Ray Zee accused Nate of in the thread).

Re: free Nate
 

I don't understand people saying Nate "went too far." He didn't make a single post in that thread that wasn't civil, constructive, and conciliatory. Anyone who's read Nate's posts or talked to him in real life should know that Nate is passionately devoted to twoplustwo and clear, accurate poker writing in general. Is it really such a cardinal sin for him to use his professional insight to make a much-needed suggestion for the improvement of twoplustwo's product? It shouldn't be overlooked that almost everyone who did more than mock his few typos agreed with him wholeheartedly. This sort of response to well-founded, sincere criticism reflects very poorly indeed on Mason.

Free Nate!

Re: free Nate
 

nath,

Nate went out of his way to pick a fight with the site owner. He didn't make a post in a constructive criticism sort of manner, but in an insulting and ridiculing manner, and then had the chutzpah to ask for the job of copy editor. And most importantly of all, he was making criticisms of matters that are relatively minor, i.e. typos and perceived grammatical errors, when the total amount of those errors is likely very small, and as well are of far lesser importance than the primary purpose of 2+2 books, which is to present the reader with correct strategy advice in the clearest (not necessarily most grammatically correct) manner. The bottom line is that he shouldn't be surprised at the resulting ban.

Note as well, that Mason and David have shown a willingness to take an awful lot of personal abuse, but aren't so willing to take abuse of their professional repuatations that aren't warranted (to a degree that matters). Nate could probably have gotten by with making a hundred posts saying that Mason is a dick personally, and it would have been ignored. But calling into question, mostly wrongly, Mason's abilities as a publisher is a matter that should obviously be different to posters here. Except to you and your couch buddy of course.

Re: free Nate
 

That thread resulting in a permaban for Nate shows a very childish reaction by someone who can't take constructive criticism, I can't see a bannable offense posted by Nate anywhere. He said multiple times he loved 2p2 books, but he felt they had an area they could improve on. Nate is a class act in general and definitely was in that thread as well, this is a great injustice.

Free Nate!

Re: free Nate
 

FREE NATE

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand people saying Nate "went too far."

[/ QUOTE ]

Look beyond the thread. Nate bugged Mason via email for a while... the thread is part two of this situation. Knowing Mason an apology and an offer to make things right might permit Nate back, he is a fair person. But Nate did cross the line, there is no doubt there. Publishing is Mason's livelihood, the centerpiece of his life. He takes a lot of pride in his work and rightfully so; you can say things about other facets of Mason's life and it would not be nearly as insulting to him, this must be considered before you rush to Nate's defense by assuming Mason was out of line.

Nates a nice guy and I do hope he comes back, but I don't think a Free Nate campaign will do the trick - it has to start with an apology. This is out of the forums hands, its between the two of them to solve.

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't make a single post in that thread that wasn't civil, constructive, and conciliatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bobman, I think you should reread the thread. He was none of the three. I was going to give him credit for civility because he didn't result to name calling, but when you tell the Grand Poohbah that he can't write, can't edit and runs his business wrong and you are an ass about how you say it, there is nothing civil about that.

I have nothing against Nate but I am not suprised that he got banned. The reason I am not suprised is simple,even after Mason entered the discussion, Nate wouldn't let it go. I think that if he had voiced his opinion, and let it go, that would have been the end of it.

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand people saying Nate "went too far."

[/ QUOTE ]

Look beyond the thread. Nate bugged Mason via email for a while... the thread is part two of this situation. Knowing Mason an apology and an offer to make things right might permit Nate back, he is a fair person. But Nate did cross the line, there is no doubt there. Publishing is Mason's livelihood, the centerpiece of his life. He takes a lot of pride in his work and rightfully so; you can say things about other facets of Mason's life and it would not be nearly as insulting to him, this must be considered before you rush to Nate's defense by assuming Mason was out of line.

Nates a nice guy and I do hope he comes back, but I don't think a Free Nate campaign will do the trick - it has to start with an apology. This is out of the forums hands, its between the two of them to solve.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole concept of a "permaban" for discussing ideas / thoughts sickens me.

You ban somebody for posting porn, being racist, abusive, etc.

But being banned for posting a (some would say fair) criticism, and then defending what you posted, is simply wrong.

Lock the thread, or better yet - refuse to further the debate. But banning somebody? Not to mention an incredibly well respected poster like Nate? Rediculous.

As for Nate apologizing, he should never have to apologize for his opinion, and in one of his last posts he expressed regret for the tone of the thread / the way the thread played out.

Look at his track record - he was not bashing Mason, 2+2, or the books. He was trying to explain how he felt they could be improved. When people disagreed with him, he tried to stress his point.

And he was banned for it.

For shame.

Re: free Nate
 

He put up numerous posts in the thread he started, made his point, ignored our replies and explanations, clearly has some sort axe to grind, and in his own small way was trying to damage the company. So he's now on vacation.

MM

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He didn't make a single post in that thread that wasn't civil, constructive, and conciliatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bobman, I think you should reread the thread. He was none of the three. I was going to give him credit for civility because he didn't result to name calling, but when you tell the Grand Poohbah that he can't write, can't edit and runs his business wrong and you are an ass about how you say it, there is nothing civil about that.

I have nothing against Nate but I am not suprised that he got banned. The reason I am not suprised is simple,even after Mason entered the discussion, Nate wouldn't let it go. I think that if he had voiced his opinion, and let it go, that would have been the end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]


It seems like we were reading different threads cause I what I read he was certainly all 3, I didnt realize "you could improve on this to make a good product even better, these are the reasons I think this:" was an attack. That's what it started out as, I didn't see any personal attacks on Mason, I didn't see anything venomous towards 2p2, all I saw was "you make good books, I think you can make them better by fixing this" and then engaging in a debate about it(or an attempt to at least amongst the "omg you missused a semicolon your argument is invalidated" crowd)

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
He put up numerous posts in the thread he started, made his point, ignored our replies and explanations, clearly has some sort axe to grind, and in his own small way was trying to damage the company. So he's now on vacation.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did he ignore you? He responded to what you were saying and you repeated yourself how he was ignoring you, it was the other way around if anything.

Re: free Nate
 

if 2p2's problem w/ nates argument was that they thought they would lose business or something, i think that is very silly. almost as silly as banning him. for one, most of the people that responded to the thread were actually on mason's side. obviously this doesn't mean the majority of the people who read it are as well, and possibly they do lose a few potential buyers, i don't know.

nate's argument was presented in a very clear and concise manner and while he admitted his tone came off more harsh then he had planned it too, it seemed obvious to me that he was only trying to prove his point and be taken seriously. it seems mason thought he took the argument too far and i don't know if he gave him a warning or anything before banning him, but either way it is definitely way too much of a punishment to perma-ban a very good thinker/poster over this imo.

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's what it started out as, I didn't see any personal attacks on Mason,

[/ QUOTE ]

This all sounds pretty personal to me. Take in to consideration that Mason is proud of 2+2 and this is his baby and if you are going to talk bad about someone's baby, you better be wearing a cup because you will get kicked in the nuts.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the cost/benefit evaluations he's done are biased by his stubbornness and his untrained ear for the language.


Therefore I'm led to conclude that Mason just doesn't care very much about grammar or style. He doesn't seem to consider it an aspect of good bookmaking. Which puts him in the position of a poker player who doesn't care about the math.


I think Mason vastly misjudges how much of these books' overwhelming (and enduring) popularity is due to the mechanics and how much is due to the material.


EDIT: By the way, however much money you've lost by delaying production this year, I think you've lost twice as much money or more by not paying more attention to grammar and style.


Mason --

I understand you. You care a lot about the quality of your books but not enough, judging by WTHG, about grammar and style. It's not that you don't care about quality; it's that (I think) you have misguided notions of what makes a book good.


I admit that I still hope that he might come to see that he is de-emphasizing a critical aspect of his book business, and that his (very impressive) success in the industry is due to the low quality of his competition and the fact that the strategic content of his books was by far the best.


But that's the point; the issue here is that 2+2's books remain poorly edited despite years of these sorts of criticisms.

This is the worst one IMHO
The point is that anyone with an ear for the language--certainly any competent editor--could rewrite that sentence better in about half a minute. And that's true of so much of WTHG.



[/ QUOTE ]

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
He put up numerous posts in the thread he started, made his point, ignored our replies and explanations, clearly has some sort axe to grind, and in his own small way was trying to damage the company. So he's now on vacation.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason - having this type of attitude / (over)reaction does much more damage to your business than Nate's words ever would.

Re: free Nate
 

Just read the thread that was linked.

My best guess is that the references to unanswered e-mails and previous history have something to do with Mason's decision, whether it was warranted or not.

I say this because the posts themselves, in a vacuum, were hardly ban-worthy. I am a grammar nit and judge accordingly. And that's just in my posts on an internet forum, certainly not something I plan to sell to others for profit.

It happens that my father is the best-selling sports author of the past decade. This has everything to do with distribution and expedience and little to do with quality of writing. That said, I've read his books and there's nary a grievous error within them.

I mention this because time is of the essence for him and he has it down to a science by which he goes from concept to completion in under a month. And yet somewhere in there he finds someone to proofread the final print and make necessary suggestions.

If Nate's bone of contention is about simple sentence structure and grammar then I think his criticism is well placed. Then again, as stated at the top there seems to be some history here and maybe that is a big factor.

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
He put up numerous posts in the thread he started, made his point, ignored our replies and explanations, clearly has some sort axe to grind, and in his own small way was trying to damage the company. So he's now on vacation.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason,

You and I clearly read different threads. I suspect my impartiality may have tainted my reading.

J

Re: free Nate
 

wow this is ridiculous going solely by the information in that thread. i realize nate is being critical of 2p2's work but he's doing it because he feels that it can be better and wants to help. if you don't want criticisms of your books then don't put up a books and publications forum. nowhere was nate anything but polite and clear in his critique.

i own some 2p2 books - they led me to the forums long ago. more than once, though, I have flipped through a 2p2 book in the bookstore, planning to buy it, only to put it down due to a lack of clarity and grammatical correctness in the writing. it makes them look unprofessional and makes me wonder how correct the poker information is if simple grammar and sentence structure can't be done right.

-Mason

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]

Mason - having this type of attitude / (over)reaction does much more damage to your business than Nate's words ever would.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, it certainly does in my mind.

If Nate went too far in your opinion then lock the thread and say you have decided the discussion is over.
Or notify Nate that he has made his point and you would like for him to stop posting in that thread otherwise you will consider banning him.

Something like that.
I'm guessing he would have been completely willing to let it drop if you had simply requested it.

Just banning him mostly out of the blue like that seems extremely inappropriate if you truly are interested in feedback and debate about 2+2 content and quality.

I don't think there was any warning ahead of time that Nate had that he was pushing the envelope so far that he was actually about to be banned (perhaps he was warned via PM or something, not sure).
And I don't think anyone reading that thread would have seriously thought that was going to happen.

The main point however is that if you "had enough" there were several other more appropriate remedies that would have been better than just banning him like that.
And many of those remedies would cause less of a current backlash on here.

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it certainly does in my mind.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He put up numerous posts in the thread he started, made his point, ignored our replies and explanations, clearly has some sort axe to grind, and in his own small way was trying to damage the company. So he's now on vacation.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason,

You and I clearly read different threads. I suspect my impartiality may have tainted my reading.

J

[/ QUOTE ]


J - I agree.

I did not see that Nate has an axe to grind. Mostly he was responding to other counter-arguments or agreements in the conituning discussion in that thread.

Someone would respond to him and he would respond back to either elaborate on his point or whatever.
This is how threads on a discussion forum work.

Someone asked him to edit that intro passage from Stox's book and he did that. Big deal. He was just responding. And he originally pointed out that sentence just to show one example of a sentence that he thought could be improved and he sure looked like he had a valid point to me.

I also completely missed the part where he ignored any of 2+2's replies or explanations.
As best I could see he addressed every one of them and did so mostly politely. Over and over again he thanked Mason or Ray for their response and also must have said a zillion times how much he enjoys and recommends 2+2's books.

So he challenged Mason to heads-up editing-duel. Big deal. Hardly the most offensive thing that has ever been said on 2+2 and definitely not ban-worthy.

I very much hope Mason reconsiders his position about this situation.

Re: free Nate
 

MicroBob,

As always, [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Re: free Nate
 

tuq - this man-crush thing is making me blush.

Also, pretty interesting background about your pops. Didn't know.

Re: free Nate
 

Hi Bob:

The following is also available to our moderators.

Best wishes,
Mason

Despite my posts to the contrary, he made it very clear that

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore I'm led to conclude that Mason just doesn't care very much about grammar or style.

[/ QUOTE ]
or something similar.

In my responses, I not only pointed out that we do care very much about writing issues, but right at the moment we have two texts which have been significantly delayed because of writing issues and these delays have cost us a fair amount of revenue which will not be recovered (and the authors have lost royalties that will not be recovered). So I don't know how else to answer his criticisms.

Yet he kept on. And eventually when this sort of thing happens, it becomes clear that there is an axe to grind and in his own way he's trying to damage our company. So he's now on vacation.

Normally I'm not the one who bans people and this authority is delegated to Mat Sklansky and through him to the rest of the moderators. So if and when Mat feels it's appropriate to reinstate this poster, it will be his decision. But I suspect his vacation will last at least a few days.

There's also another issue here. Checking my emails, this poster sent me his resume in March of 2006 looking for an editor job. Due to a computer crash where I lost some of my sent emails from my hard disk, I don't have my response to him. But we get these inquiries every now and then and my policy is to politely turn these people down.

Also, the book our critic is so negative towards is a book that was very difficult to edit, and in which our editing work was quite extensive. But unlike the other books I mention, we did make a decision to go with this text and not send it back to the authors for rewriting. We also decided not to bring in a skilled writer, such as an Alan Schoonmaker. These are decisions that we make inside our company and we try to make the best decisions we can given the information we have available. They are also impacted by publishing schedule, perceived sales potential, ease of working with the author(s), impact of the book on the company in general, printing costs, and a host of other issues.

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Over and over again he thanked Mason or Ray for their response and also must have said a zillion times how much he enjoys and recommends 2+2's books.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that was my impression as well. Clearly the reds were far less professional in that thread.

J

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
He put up numerous posts in the thread he started, made his point, ignored our replies and explanations, clearly has some sort axe to grind, and in his own small way was trying to damage the company. So he's now on vacation.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that you care or should care, but based upon your statement, reading that thread and the subsequent banning I've lost some respect for you and your company.

I find it absurd that you'd be so thin skinned as to get worked up about the opinion of some grammar nit. If you feel that you put out a great product why do you care what someone else thinks?

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Bob:

The following is also available to our moderators.

Best wishes,
Mason

Despite my posts to the contrary, he made it very clear that

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore I'm led to conclude that Mason just doesn't care very much about grammar or style.

[/ QUOTE ]
or something similar.

In my responses, I not only pointed out that we do care very much about writing issues, but right at the moment we have two texts which have been significantly delayed because of writing issues and these delays have cost us a fair amount of revenue which will not be recovered (and the authors have lost royalties that will not be recovered). So I don't know how else to answer his criticisms.

Yet he kept on. And eventually when this sort of thing happens, it becomes clear that there is an axe to grind and in his own way he's trying to damage our company. So he's now on vacation.

Normally I'm not the one who bans people and this authority is delegated to Mat Sklansky and through him to the rest of the moderators. So if and when Mat feels it's appropriate to reinstate this poster, it will be his decision. But I suspect his vacation will last at least a few days.

There's also another issue here. Checking my emails, this poster sent me his resume in March of 2006 looking for an editor job. Due to a computer crash where I lost some of my sent emails from my hard disk, I don't have my response to him. But we get these inquiries every now and then and my policy is to politely turn these people down.

Also, the book our critic is so negative towards is a book that was very difficult to edit, and in which our editing work was quite extensive. But unlike the other books I mention, we did make a decision to go with this text and not send it back to the authors for rewriting. We also decided not to bring in a skilled writer, such as an Alan Schoonmaker. These are decisions that we make inside our company and we try to make the best decisions we can given the information we have available. They are also impacted by publishing schedule, perceived sales potential, ease of working with the author(s), impact of the book on the company in general, printing costs, and a host of other issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have always found the line "We choose to disagree" is a good way to end a debate where both sides - um - disagree.

Banning, however, makes you look small and petty.

What his applying for a job has to do with anything, I don't get. This post looks like you're furthering the debate that you've tried to end through the banning.

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Bob:

The following is also available to our moderators.

Best wishes,
Mason

Despite my posts to the contrary, he made it very clear that

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore I'm led to conclude that Mason just doesn't care very much about grammar or style.

[/ QUOTE ]
or something similar.

In my responses, I not only pointed out that we do care very much about writing issues, but right at the moment we have two texts which have been significantly delayed because of writing issues and these delays have cost us a fair amount of revenue which will not be recovered (and the authors have lost royalties that will not be recovered). So I don't know how else to answer his criticisms.


[/ QUOTE ]

So your response to disagreement is banning? In a case where multiple posters share such disagreement?

[ QUOTE ]

Yet he kept on. And eventually when this sort of thing happens, it becomes clear that there is an axe to grind and in his own way he's trying to damage our company. So he's now on vacation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Slight paranoia?

[ QUOTE ]

Normally I'm not the one who bans people and this authority is delegated to Mat Sklansky and through him to the rest of the moderators. So if and when Mat feels it's appropriate to reinstate this poster, it will be his decision. But I suspect his vacation will last at least a few days.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you're not allowed to deal with the public too much. It's hilarious that a Sklansky is actually the people person.

[ QUOTE ]

There's also another issue here. Checking my emails, this poster sent me his resume in March of 2006 looking for an editor job. Due to a computer crash where I lost some of my sent emails from my hard disk, I don't have my response to him. But we get these inquiries every now and then and my policy is to politely turn these people down.

Also, the book our critic is so negative towards is a book that was very difficult to edit, and in which our editing work was quite extensive. But unlike the other books I mention, we did make a decision to go with this text and not send it back to the authors for rewriting. We also decided not to bring in a skilled writer, such as an Alan Schoonmaker. These are decisions that we make inside our company and we try to make the best decisions we can given the information we have available. They are also impacted by publishing schedule, perceived sales potential, ease of working with the author(s), impact of the book on the company in general, printing costs, and a host of other issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

You put up a forum, expect people to critique your uber secret internal decisions.

J

Re: free Nate
 

Mason, I know you don't have the benefit of knowing Nate personally like many of us do, but you couldn't be more wrong in your assessment of his motivations. He doesn't have any axe to grind, nor does he want to hurt 2+2 in any way. He loves this community and genuinely wants the 2+2 brand name to present itself to the public in the most professional way possible. So, he aired his views assertively and defended them without your desired amount of fealty. Get over it.

Re: free Nate
 

Mason,

After reading all these additional posts just do the right thing and unban Nate please. We already have enough drama in our lives - they're called "females".

Re: free Nate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mason, I know you don't have the benefit of knowing Nate personally like many of us do, but you couldn't be more wrong in your assessment of his motivations. He doesn't have any axe to grind, nor does he want to hurt 2+2 in any way. He loves this community and genuinely wants the 2+2 brand name to present itself to the public in the most professional way possible. So, he aired his views assertively and defended them without your desired amount of fealty. Get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]
holla

Re: free Nate
 

pete - having never met Nate that was the very obvious impression I got as well.


Mason - Thanks for your response although I still disagree with your assessment of Nate's motivations and with your actions. You can just agree to disagree about it and choose to end the debate by locking the thread or by politely asking Nate to cease his criticisms because he has made his point. I believe anning was completely unnecessary and inappropriate.

Again, I also agree with OntarioTory that it is your overreaction that is perhaps causing some damage to your company and that whatever Nate had to say about the grammar would not have been able to cause much damage in the long-run.
Contrarily, perhaps listening more objectively to his criticisms could actually help the company as seemed to be his obvious intent. See Tuq's and Mason55's posts in this thread for more on this.