OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
Ok Round Two:
Everyone, if you haven't already please read the sticky, now is a good time to do so. Also, Citanul edit: that first thing you listed here is not really kosher. Carry on. Convert your hands unless they're $500+ buyin, in that case it's ok to not convert your hands. Everyone be safe, always wear your seat belts wherever you go. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom. Never have sex with a stripper inside the strip club. AND! Always wear a condom when having sex, with ANYTHING! Yep Josem said it better than I ever could. Good Luck to all our brave little soldiers in Las Vegas. Love Much Always, bengiec Further citanul edit: Something about mundane bad beats. Don't post them here. Same for small downswings. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
IBL
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Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
is it too late to take back the unprotected sex incidents?
[censored] |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
I dont usually shove KK pre like this, but in a 1,75$ turbo I figured I was ahead. I was pretty sure I was gonna see pocket pair or stuff like that (AJo).
Those 2 hands happend like nearly at the same time on 2 table. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) MP3 (t1450) CO (t1570) Button (t1420) Hero (t1450) BB (t1460) UTG (t1470) UTG+1 (t1465) MP1 (t1410) MP2 (t1805) Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of t30. <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, daman70 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1500</font>. Flop: (t1545) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font> Turn: (t1545) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font> River: (t1545) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font> Final Pot: t1545 Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF"> Hero has Kh Kc (two pair, kings and jacks). MP3 has Jc Ah (full house, jacks full of sixes). Outcome: MP3 wins t3000. Hero wins t40. </font> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) UTG (t1450) UTG+1 (t1570) MP1 (t1420) Hero (t1450) MP3 (t1460) CO (t1470) Button (t1465) SB (t1410) BB (t1805) Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1450</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls t1420 (All-In). Flop: (t2945) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font> Turn: (t2945) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font> River: (t2945) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font> Final Pot: t2945 Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF"> UTG has Jc Ah (two pair, aces and jacks). Hero has Ks Kh (one pair, kings). Outcome: UTG wins t2945. </font> way to start off JULY !!! FU JULY [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
If that was a strategy question... then sure push KK and get called by a worse hand. If you are looking for 'poor you so unlucky' then please don't... We all have these hands 67 times a day and don't really care.
/End of grumpy hungover message |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
ban sayfur. happy canada day!
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Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
flight booked, room at the mgm booked, july 5 - 10.
bunch of people have picked up shares of my action, and there's still a few % available for interested people. woo. vegas. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
I'm leaving today to drive to colorado for my sisterinlaw's wedding next saterday. I'd probably be looking forward to it if I didn't know to the bottom of my heart I was driving the wrong direction, sigh.
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Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
Anyone on the east coast know if Transformers is playing at an IMAX theater? It seems perfect for it but Fandango doesn't seem to have any available.
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand:
Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
is it too late to take back the unprotected sex incidents? [censored] [/ QUOTE ] lololol, dude, I'm telling you shes a ho mwahahahaha |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand: Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] this hand was played so poorly |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand: Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] this hand was played so poorly [/ QUOTE ] By me? or villian? or both? That was probably my 100th hand ever of nl cash so I know I suck...What'd I do wrong (maybe the pf raise was bad)? |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand: Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I nominate this for worst hand of the year |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand: Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] this hand was played so poorly [/ QUOTE ] By me? or villian? or both? That was probably my 100th hand ever of nl cash so I know I suck...What'd I do wrong (maybe the pf raise was bad)? [/ QUOTE ] The PF raise is fine, I would bet the flop here. but checking isnt SO bad. the turn play is horrible, you have to raise this. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand: Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] this hand was played so poorly [/ QUOTE ] By me? or villian? or both? That was probably my 100th hand ever of nl cash so I know I suck...What'd I do wrong (maybe the pf raise was bad)? [/ QUOTE ] raise more preflop, you dont have to bet the flop w/ your stack but i probably would, def bet the turn so that you dont have to overbet to get the money in on the river |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand: Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I nominate this for worst hand of the year [/ QUOTE ] lmao and I thought I was posting this because it was funny that I lost in hand 1 after flopping a boat, not because I donked it up so bad. Guess it wasn't rigged after all, just a mercy killing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand: Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I nominate this for worst hand of the year [/ QUOTE ] you must not have seen me donking at 2/5 last night...played the worst poker i have in forever. the funny part is, i have to play godawful to go -140 in that [censored] game. amazing. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So Bodog sends me an e-mail telling me I have $12 laying around there, so I decided to play a little .10/.25 nl to see what I could do with it...that lasted one hand: Dealt to Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checks around to small blind who limps, I raise to .75, villian calls. Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Chk, Chk Turn, 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian bets .50, I call River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villan bets $1.50, I shove, villian calls Quad Aces...bye bye $12 (rigged obv.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I nominate this for worst hand of the year [/ QUOTE ] you must not have seen me donking at 2/5 last night...played the worst poker i have in forever. the funny part is, i have to play godawful to go -140 in that [censored] game. amazing. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, if only STTs were still like this..sigh.. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
If I played sets I'd kill myself.
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Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ] Never have sex with a stripper inside the strip club. [/ QUOTE ] you really cant nail strippers in the back room? what the hell did those guys drop a grand on then? |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
Anyone here subscribe to thecashdb? A buddy of mine has been playing pretty high level (25/50NL) on Stars and wants to know what it says about him.
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Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
Got this e-mail from Stars recently:
Hello, PokerStars has become aware of players who were working together in our Sit & Go tournaments to the detriment of other players. You were involved in at least one tournament with these players and as a result you may have been adversely affected. The players' accounts were closed and their funds frozen pending a thorough investigation, which is now complete. In a case such as this it is our policy to confiscate the colluders' winnings or balances and to distribute them to the players affected by their actions in as fair a way as possible. To confirm your credit, log onto your PokerStars account, go to the 'Cashier' screen and click the 'History' button. Your share will be shown as a "Credit Purchase", followed by the amount of the credit. I regret that we will be unable to answer questions as to how your specific credit amount was calculated. Likewise, we are not at liberty to identify the specific games or players in question. Suffice to say that they have been barred from the site and you will not encounter them again. The integrity of the games at PokerStars is of paramount importance to us and we will not abide cheating or collusion in our games. We work hard to police our games and prevent such instances. In the rare cases where collusion has actually occurred, we make sure that any players affected are compensated appropriately. Thank you for your continued play here on PokerStars. Please do not hesitate to let us know any time we can be of help. Best Regards, SteveW PokerStars Support Team Yea free money, $288.40 credit. Good to know they're paying attention to these things (hopefully it wasn't just someone and their mom on the same account). I'd rather it have go a tad bit too far on occasion, then to not have any real oversight at all. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
Got this e-mail from Stars recently: Hello, PokerStars has become aware of players who were working together in our Sit & Go tournaments to the detriment of other players. You were involved in at least one tournament with these players and as a result you may have been adversely affected. The players' accounts were closed and their funds frozen pending a thorough investigation, which is now complete. In a case such as this it is our policy to confiscate the colluders' winnings or balances and to distribute them to the players affected by their actions in as fair a way as possible. To confirm your credit, log onto your PokerStars account, go to the 'Cashier' screen and click the 'History' button. Your share will be shown as a "Credit Purchase", followed by the amount of the credit. I regret that we will be unable to answer questions as to how your specific credit amount was calculated. Likewise, we are not at liberty to identify the specific games or players in question. Suffice to say that they have been barred from the site and you will not encounter them again. The integrity of the games at PokerStars is of paramount importance to us and we will not abide cheating or collusion in our games. We work hard to police our games and prevent such instances. In the rare cases where collusion has actually occurred, we make sure that any players affected are compensated appropriately. Thank you for your continued play here on PokerStars. Please do not hesitate to let us know any time we can be of help. Best Regards, SteveW PokerStars Support Team Yea free money, $288.40 credit. Good to know they're paying attention to these things (hopefully it wasn't just someone and their mom on the same account). I'd rather it have go a tad bit too far on occasion, then to not have any real oversight at all. [/ QUOTE ] On a serious note you should save this email and send it to those who might be inclined to grant a poker exemption to the Frist legislation. I know it's not at the center of the argument but it shows that at least PS is policing their site and trying to run the fairest poker competition possible online. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
Gramps,
For someone who frequents this forum as much as you, I can't believe you've never seen this before? It's been pretty common lately. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
Just for fun today.
Warmup A5>99 Million FD> Top two. Second Chance 55>KT on a TTQ5 board. FTP 500k K7>44 on a K345 board. FTP Mulligan Lost a race. 109r 55>AQ Party 350k AA two tone board river Ah Flush > Top set FTP mulligan lose a race when my call was so +GBUX. I hate Multis so [censored] much -2k. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
Hypotron: Cha and Microbet are here!
. Hypotron: Hi Mike, Cha here. . MikeMcQ1: So...when you and Microbet go over to the wannabee's mansion, do you ever worry that some investigative reporter will surprise you at the door and start asking awkward questions about "why you are there"? |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
Gramps, For someone who frequents this forum as much as you, I can't believe you've never seen this before? It's been pretty common lately. [/ QUOTE ] I know they do it, I've seen other people write about it here and there, but it's the first time I can recall that I've gotten it, hence my post in the [censored] thread. Seems logical enough, no? |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Gramps, For someone who frequents this forum as much as you, I can't believe you've never seen this before? It's been pretty common lately. [/ QUOTE ] I know they do it, I've seen other people write about it here and there, but it's the first time I can recall that I've gotten it, hence my post in the [censored] thread. Seems logical enough, no? [/ QUOTE ] almost a little too logical... |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Gramps, For someone who frequents this forum as much as you, I can't believe you've never seen this before? It's been pretty common lately. [/ QUOTE ] I know they do it, I've seen other people write about it here and there, but it's the first time I can recall that I've gotten it, hence my post in the [censored] thread. Seems logical enough, no? [/ QUOTE ] almost a little too logical... [/ QUOTE ] River Prayer is Finkle is Einhorn, Einhorn is Finkle is River Prayer... |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
flight booked, room at the mgm booked, july 5 - 10. bunch of people have picked up shares of my action, and there's still a few % available for interested people. woo. vegas. [/ QUOTE ] July 5th? That sucks. You've missed out dude. I may not be AMT. but I may be microbet |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
Ever wonder what the Electronic Daisy Carnival feels like?
EDC pic report up on my blog, [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. My only regret is not taking more and more coherent pictures ,lol. Yugoslav |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
Ever wonder what a shameless plug for my blog looks like? EDC pic report up on my blog, [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. Yugoslav [/ QUOTE ] A way too easy FYP. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
I don't roll but there is nothing better then getting insanely drunk and being in that atmosphere. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Who was DJ'ing?
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Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
I'm looking for some basic coaching in 6 max nl hold em. Right now I'm just playing 5cent/10cent. Pm me with your info and stuff.
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Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
So I was wondering
A. if there is a way to delete the HHs from PT without deleting the results (like can i delete all the HHs from SNGs i played, but leave the total stats, like games played, ROI and such that show up in that line) I don't play SNGs anymore, and don't plan to seriously probably ever again, so I don't want to do this for cash games, just SNGs and B. will this help speed up my PT and clear up some space on my computer |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
ya so i played bengiec HU on FTP for rollz and w/ like $250 effective stacks he opens to 6, i make it $18 w/ A7hh. flop is As7sXs. I pot, he calls. Turn is Kh. I pot, he MINRAISE SHOVES, i INSTACALL, he shows TsTx. River is a spade and bengie ships the pot and the HU match WHAT A [censored] FISH AMIRITE? |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Never have sex with a stripper inside the strip club. [/ QUOTE ] you really cant nail strippers in the back room? what the hell did those guys drop a grand on then? [/ QUOTE ] http://content.answers.com/main/cont...pagne-room.jpg But no matter who you are you must remember this one thing, no matter what a stripper says, theres no sex in the champagne room. None. |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
[ QUOTE ]
I don't roll but there is nothing better then getting insanely drunk and being in that atmosphere. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Who was DJ'ing? [/ QUOTE ] Who wasn't? Paul Oakenfold was headlining, deep dish played, pendulum (drum+bass), infected mushroom, farina, like way more. They had five stages for 12 hours. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Yugoslav |
Re: OT: [censored] thread, July, READ RULES IN TOP POST
so i just started playing on FTP again for the first time in months and i've already reported 2 spam (go to this site for FREE money etc.) violations in less than 10 hours of play. when did it get this bad?
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