KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Kind of a sick hand. Private home game, NYC. Blinds 25-50.

To give some history, villain (button in this hand) most likely views me as a strong player capable of moves. Once in our last session he had called a big preflop reraise from me (it might have even been a 4 bet pre I can't really remember with AQ sooted in position) and the flop came Qxx and I open shoved (too much in pot, wanted to push him off JJ, etc) and he called and beat my AK. This session, I reraised him again with AK pre oop and he called in position. Flop was Q43 I bet 1100 he called. Turn was a 6 I bet 3400 he shoved I instamucked. So he definitely knows I am capable of moves, as he's caught me a few times when he's looked me up.

Onto the hand.


Stack sizes are really critical in this hand, and advice on ALL actions is welcome. This was a super tough hand.

MP who is a player who knows my game very well makes it 350 to go preflop. I see the button wanting to reraise pre (he actually gets out a 1k chip but then decides to flat call). I look down at KK in the SB. I decide to 3-bet to 1300. I think this is by far the standard play.

Stack sizes to start the hand:
MP: 16kish
BTN: Has everyone covered
Hero: 27.5k

So after I reraise to 1300, MP thinks for a while, and repops to 4100. Now this is where the hand gets interesting. BTN COLD CALLS??!!

It's on you, what is your action, what do you put them on, and based on stack sizes, what is the correct play.

I will say this. My read at the time was that the button had a strong hand, because I saw him reaching to reraise preflop. I think MP also could be resqueezing preflop because he had been by far the most aggressive preflop 3 and 4 bettor at the table thus far on the night, so it's entirely possible he is on a resqueeze, putting me on a squeeze.

I think for a long long while, and decide that I really just want to take the pot down now, I am happy to get the $ in against MP, much less happy against getting the $ in v. the BTN, but I decide to make it 10k more, so 14100 total.

What do people think of this, and also what do people think of the size of my 4-bet, based on the odds I'd be laying myself against a BTN push? Can I safely fold if he pushes or will I be committed to the hand?

MP quickly folds. Then the button goes into the tank...and cold calls. This is now the 3rd time he has cold called.

I really think he would have just shoved in AA at some point, but who the hell knows. I also think he could think that I'm on a move.

You have around 13.5kish back after your reraise, the pot is big. What range do you put him on, and why? What is your plan for the following flops?

A) flop with a Q or J in it
B) A flop with an A in it
C) A low card flop

thanks,
dlpnyc21

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

i think i like the preflop play. go all in dark.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

It all depends on what the button's range is for coldcalling the 4k and 14k preflop. If you think he can have QQ, JJ, AK, or other hands preflop is good and you should push any flop, but for many players QQ will be in the muck by then. Totally read dependant, against some I'd fold KK after the button coldcalls 4100.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
It all depends on what the button's range is for coldcalling the 4k and 14k preflop. If you think he can have QQ, JJ, AK, or other hands preflop is good and you should push any flop, but for many players QQ will be in the muck by then. Totally read dependant, against some I'd fold KK after the button coldcalls 4100.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say the BTN range after he calls the 4100 is most likely JJ+, AK, with a slight chance of AQss, but only very slight.

dlpnyc21

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

I dont see why AA would shove at some point, I think if he is willing to felt AK and AA here, he'd be WAY more likely to shove AK and CC AA than the other way round.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think i like the preflop play. go all in dark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

i like the all in dark bet

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is really deep and FU

I am guessing from the way the hand has gone other dude (that folded) may have had AK or AQs, TT etc, Villain smells more like QQ+ may even have case KK) to smooth call the 14k.

Your preflop raise is basically pot committing (math sense) yes ?

Scary position and I am guessing Villain is going to put you all in anyway ?

But I think you have played this very well to the flop !

[/ QUOTE ]


I laid my opponent 2.3ish:1. Based on these odds, and his perceived view of my range (which is probably JJ+,AK, some trash maybe 5% of the time), what hands can he reasonably call me with?

Also, what do people think of shoving pre?

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

550 bb on KK, sick but I realize these NYC games get like that.

I probably do not blind bet flop but I do not see how all of the money is not going in on a non A high flop

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Pretty sick spot. I think since you decided to come back over the top for 10k more preflop I would have leaned more toward shoving although jamming that AI will KK ehhh. I mean once you raise it 10k more are really going to fold if you get shoved on based on how you described villains? Plus you are out of pos. Even after the flop are you going to fold no matter what flops? Based on how the action went and how you described how he wanted to raise preflop I think he has precisely jj qq or ak with a very slim chance of kk obviously. I don't think it is very likely the way the hand played pre that he has aa either maybe 10%. I think he would call your 10k pop pre in pos given the two ak hands that you just discussed and he is in pos.
I don't like a blind shove here either because if an ace flops and he has acex or aa you will get called and if he has qq or jj I don't know given your prior two ak hands. If an ace flops and you check to him and he has qq or jj he may shove it in because he has to put you on qq kk ak and he may think he can push you out if you have kk qq. Anyway, I hope this flop came out with 3 rags for your sake.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

A button shove after your repop is fishy and requires an insta call. After MP repops you have to go less on the physical read and more on the betting pattern. His cold call of MPs repop suggests that no way he has AA. Too much chance of seeing the pot 3-way.

I think you needed to raise more pre-flop or shove. His range at this point is most likely AK, QQ, JJ, AA in that order. If you shove the flop he is not putting another dime in the unless he flops bingo. So then you have to try to play deceptively and hope he makes a mistake. Worse, any A, Q or J on the flop is scary. Your repop gives him close to 2:1 to call, so in a misguided rationalization he probably talked himself into calling with, I would have to guess, most like AK.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Interesting hand.

OP would you consider folding if button shoves pre after the four bet?

The way this hand is played i think checking the flop no matter what hits is the best option to either give him a chance to bet a lesser hand, or help you with your read (incase you feel u r beat) when he acts.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Yea idk about you guys, but if David can sit there like a statue no matter what the flop comes he should check it (not dark either).

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand.

OP would you consider folding if button shoves pre after the four bet?

The way this hand is played i think checking the flop no matter what hits is the best option to either give him a chance to bet a lesser hand, or help you with your read (incase you feel u r beat) when he acts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 100% and this is what i wound up doing...i won't say what the flop was yet, but i thought for about 5 minutes PREFLOP before I decided to repop to 10k more because i wanted to forumlate a plan on all possible actions and flops.

If btn had shoved I would have very strongly considered folding but would have done some talking to him and gotten a physical read. Most likely I would not have folded though based on the pot odds i laid myself if he shoved.

However, what is a reasonable calling range for the BTN of my 4-bet given what odds I laid my opponent???

This question is very important, IMO.

Thanks, this was a very very sick spot, and post-flop was even more interesting because of how it developed.

dlpnyc21

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

crappy spot if you dont do a lot of really crazy stuff preflop. its that weird balance between weighing on one side picking up 8k ish in the pot and not allowing some weird hand to bust you and also not laying implied odds while on the other hand allowing your opponents to play close to perfect (they will usually fold QQ and AK to this crazy preflop action, right?). I ususally lean towards just calling the 4.1k preflop unless I have been really wild in which case I will pop it up just like you did. with a tight image I really dont love the preflop play, but like i said its not like there are really great lines out there for you to use.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

dave, i dont like this question because it seems pretty obvious to me that because you are likely not doing lots of crazy [censored] at the table, there is not one hand that makes a lot of sense for the button to have. If he has AA i think he'd put it in knowing the pot odds you are getting, and everything else he'd probably fold. this goes back to my point where your preflop line is probably not that good unless you got a maniac image or are against someone that wont fold QQ JJ here.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Dave although i dont think i am very qualified to give hand ranges, because i have never played such high stakes games live (ie very deep), In my opinion i think aa can be ruled out in his hand ranges. I have seen many weird aa plays pre, but i do believe that after the initial raiser popped it to 4000, most players would want to thin out the field by repopping at this point.

Having said this another important factor is how long you have taken to reraise to 14k. He could have interpreted this as a sign of weakness (obv depending on how you have acted during other decisions). But in my opinion given all these factors, I think the most likely hands are ak and qq and he just wants to ensure a non-ugly flop before committing all his chips.

But yet again how many times do players in these games (or this player in particular) commit 300 bb's out of 500bb's pre without the nuts?

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

this is just sick, i might even just straight shove pre, could talk one of them into aclling with QQ or something, not sure if live overbets look stronger or weaker, guess it's opponent dependant, but someone might talk themselves into thinking you have AK or something

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, what is a reasonable calling range for the BTN of my 4-bet given what odds I laid my opponent???

This question is very important, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that anyone who hasn't played with BTN can't possibly answer your question because his play makes zero sense. Coldcalling a third time for 10K more? LOL. Come on.

When your pf raise would leave you with about 1/2 of a psb, doesn't it make sense to just push? Can you seriously get away from your hand?

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Just something to keep in mind, we're be getting a bit over 3-1 on a call if button shoved over our 5 bet, so I don't think folding is an option (considering we're 4-1 dog against AA) at that point. Honestly I really hate your 5 bet if you're folding to a shove, or if you think your 5 bet is going to fold out everything but AA. You know what I mean?

Also, is this a full table or shorthanded? I think that changes the dynamics of the hand quite a bit.

I really don't think postflop is that interesting considering we have less than a half pot sized bet left here, although I suppose it does get tricky on an Axx or Qxx flop. Still, with the history of him calling your 4 bet with AQ and then he saw you double barrell in a reraised pot before so I doubt he gives you much credit, and therefore will committ with weaker hands than normal against you.

On a Qxx flop, I think your only moves are shoving or check/folding, personally. Can you really expect him to even have a hand to bluff with, let alone follow through with it this deep? I don't think so, and I'd probably shove here,

Axx is interesting, but I'd probably just check it and hope to see a showdown. I doubt he would turn QQ/JJ into a bluff, as I just don't think he'll think advanced enough to do that.

Low card flop seems like a pretty easy shove to me, I guess you can check call if you think he'll bluff at it. Either way I'm not folding now given how you got here.

Personally I would have just called the 4 bet from MP, but that does put us into some really tricky spots postflop. I also might consider folding with the right read. You just have to wonder how often button is committing with less than AA for 550bbs. I honestly hate your 5 bet with a standard image against most reasonable opponents this deep, you're just asking to lose the maximum against AA and win the minimum against hands you beat like QQ/JJ/AK.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

how can this guy not have AA here... the chances he doesnt have to be in the single digit percentile range... obv check on the flop..

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Looks to me like after MP raised BTN saw something in your actions to make him believe you were going to call or more likely raise and he wanted to keep you in. Your 4 bet clearly put you on AA or KK and if he came over the top all-in wouldn't you 100% put him on AA and possibly fold? I think he was going to take a shot that you weren't going to flop a set and either get the last 13k if you didn't and possibly save 13k if you did.(that would also mean that he MIGHT lay down AA vs AA with a Kxx flop)


I think he had AA and although a little risky I like the play.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

I have KcKx. The BTN just called my 10k extra 4-bet. I have 13k back. Flop comes out Ac10c4x.

I check, as was my plan. The button thinks for a long while, and actually looks confused. He bets 5k.

Your action now? Or do you just open shove this flop and fold out QQ/JJ?

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

i would have bet blind - but now i guess fold? why would he bet QQ/JJ here?

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

I don't see how villain could have AA. If he was slowplaying AA to get all this extra value out of it, why would he then put out a bet when he hits top set? is he afraid of KQc? I don't see how he can have AA here unless he's schizophrenic.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

I just wanted to say again how much I love your posts dlp. As a slight winner in lower stakes I put him on QQ with 90% certainty.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

You say you wanted to check flop to get a read etc. Do you feel you can pick up that much in physical tells to check for this reason? You said he looked confused. What does this mean to you?

I like betting blind here since I don't just like checking the flop. You have so much in the middle and you don't have enough left to be able to get away from a feeler bet etc. I just don't see what a check does for you. A blind all in says you have AA or KK. When a A high flop comes he may actually fold AK or AQ to your blind all in (maybe he still calls most of the time but you still make him think hard). Even if you had AA I think you should bet the flop since you hope he has AK and you can get more value out of it. If the flop is rags why would you want to give him a free card to hit an A if he does have AK or AQ? If the flop is rags why give him a chance to hit a straight or trips w QQ? I think you want to make him pay here. If he has AA that sucks but I don't see how check folding this situation is profitable in the long run unless you have some dead read on the guy.

I think it is most likely he has QQ or AK in that order. AA would be very tricky and risky but maybe he is like that. If you think its ~45/45/10% for QQ/AK/AA then i think you have to throw it in here. I also agree with the poster who said that if he had AA why would he bet this flop considering his pre flop play.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Wow, I thought preflop was sick for you. But I think the flop is even sicker. Of course it had an ace in it what else. I think you played the flop perfectly especially for this flop. I think if it contained anything other than an ace or a queen you should have shoved but since it contained an ace perfect. For those saying you should bet this flop or shove it-no way. If he has an ace he is calling EVERY time and if he has qq he will probably fold this a bunch I assume. But checking to him with qq I think he fires enough to warrant giving him a free card with only 2 outs especially if he thinks he can push you off of kk.

Given the way this hand has played I don't see how you can fold this. Given that an ace flopped there are 3 combos of aa he could have and 6 combos of ak and 6 combos of qq. I am pretty certain you think he has one of these hands as does everybody else. I personally think its about 2 to 1 his hand contains an ace based on his flop bet(I think the small bet implies an ace more than qq), but even if you end up all in you are getting laid way better than that. Given your history with him I think you just shove at this point because I don't think he lays down qq at this point if he has it and if he has an ace ehhhh. Also, for those saying why would villain bet this flop if he had aa, why would he not? The pot has 32k in it and if he has aa what is he suppose to do check it down and hope his opponent doesn't catch runner runner straight or flush.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

This is a sick flop. I would certainly be shoving any flop without an ace on it. I would check here as you did. I think the only hand that makes sense here for villian is a horribly played AK.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

villian has the same hand as you imo. Originally only called preflop on btn to trap, but once it was raised and reraised only called cause he feared AA. On the flop he bets such a small amount after that A because he puts you on QQ. This could explain why he looked confused

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to say again how much I love your posts dlp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

I don't see any reason he can't have AA here, given the way preflop played out. The rest of his range is probably the other KK and maybe QQ. Theres a slight chance he's got JJ or AK or something else, but I doubt it. If his calling range preflop in this spot was wider, i'd recommend a blind-shove before the flop was dealt, but when you're likely not in great shape, i'd prefer to see it first, and likely check.

As for his flop bet, it sure doesnt seem like AA, so i'd probably call and shove a non-Q turn, or something like that.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

I really think Villain has KK or QQ here.

AK - This is a gross underbet for this flop. Would he really play AK this way? He can't be scared of top set here, otherwise why call the preflop raise in the first place?

AA - You said he looked like he had a strong hand after the initial preflop bet, but decided instead to call. He does this a second time after your reraise. Would he really not push AA pre after your reraise? Or is he scared YOU have AA or AK, and waiting to see a "safe" flop?

Definitely a tough hand and sticky position, but, as played (check flop), I think a check raise all-in might be best here?

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have KcKx. The BTN just called my 10k extra 4-bet. I have 13k back. Flop comes out Ac10c4x.

I check, as was my plan. The button thinks for a long while, and actually looks confused. He bets 5k.

Your action now? Or do you just open shove this flop and fold out QQ/JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great flop for you. AA becomes less likely, and you can move in and fold his KK.

-eric

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have KcKx. The BTN just called my 10k extra 4-bet. I have 13k back. Flop comes out Ac10c4x.

I check, as was my plan. The button thinks for a long while, and actually looks confused. He bets 5k.

Your action now? Or do you just open shove this flop and fold out QQ/JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great flop for you. AA becomes less likely, and you can move in and fold his KK.

-eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope this is leveling.

Results?

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have KcKx. The BTN just called my 10k extra 4-bet. I have 13k back. Flop comes out Ac10c4x.

I check, as was my plan. The button thinks for a long while, and actually looks confused. He bets 5k.

Your action now? Or do you just open shove this flop and fold out QQ/JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great flop for you. AA becomes less likely, and you can move in and fold his KK.

-eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope this is leveling.

Results?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't post results anymore unless there is a reason to. I think there is some great advice overall on this thread, this was a tough spot. I can certainly see why flatting pre here with KK would probably be a superior play overall, but I had actually been messing around a bit preflop so I didn't mind the 4-bet here. When he triple cold-called, I was put in an awkward spot, leaving me with less than a 1/2psb left, but I figured checking MOST flops (not all) would be better than betting most flops), and this flop (a104cc) its a lot better to check then to shove.

When he bet the 5k, I decided there was just too much in there (faulty reasoning), so I cr-shoved.

Thanks for some great advice on this thread, much appreciated.

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

I would have pushed all in preflop, because:

You cannot fold on the flop anyway, commited most likely.

To push all in pre kinda takes away a tough decision, it doesn't matter what happens now.

There is nothing worse than having KK, reraising preflop and getting called and the flop has an ace.

By the way, why don't you post the results of the hand, what's the problem with it? We don't know you in real life, how can it matter? Have you lost the hand or?

Re: KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc...
 

Dave,

So do we know what he played that way? That's the reason to post results. People give you their feedback into the play of the hand, and then you tell them what the results were so that they can augment their experiences with yours and thereby build a more accurate hand range for similar opponents next time they're in a similar spot. It's pretty clear that he has played his hand weirdly here, and it's interesting for people to know what cards he had when he did that, if you know.

- TWP