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-   -   What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=439495)

MYNAMEIZGREG 06-30-2007 05:06 AM

What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
I think snowbank summed this up really well. The contents of this article are not mind-numbingly new, but they need to be read and re-read, and really taken seriously. With that said, I hope you enjoy.

Greg

----------------------------------------

What you are doing wrong as an SSNLer

In my first draft of this article, I had over a page long introduction. A friend told me to cut all the excess crap out, so here it is: You’re playing poker for one of two reasons: a) to become the best poker player you can be or b) to make the most money you can make

Although the on the surface A and B appear radically different, they are actually the same thing! Improving your game to its maximum will make you the most money possible. Yet, every single month I hear about all the “big” SSNL players with goals of 100k hands or month or more, knowing that their winrates will suffer, and they won’t get too much better. Sure, they might grind out 50 or even 100 dollars an hour, which is great by real world standards, but I’m pretty sure everyone has already realized this isn’t the normal real world when you can sit in front of your computer screen and click buttons to get this hourly rate.

Essentially, I am saying that many times your hours are better spent doing something else than playing SSNL. That’s because, even moving up to 2/4 or eventually 3/6, and maybe 5/10 will make you so much more money, EV-wise it’s profitable to improve as a player as quickly as you can, versus putting in lots of hands. Yes, I realize the games are harder, and the players are harder, but I’m pretty sure everyone started out at SS at some point. Last June, I was playing NL200 on Party Poker, and now I am a winning NL2000 and NL5000 player.

You won’t like to hear me say this, but you need to hear it: Get better, and move up. Don’t be afraid. I was afraid of moving up to 2/4, and then 3/6, and then 5/10. I had to have someone kick me in the ass and push me the whole way. But I’m so glad he did it, because in the end it was completely worth it.

Now, I know what you are saying. “That’s great that you can sit here and tell us to get better, Greg. Really helpful.” Well, I can’t tell you exactly how to get better/make more money (well, not all in this article [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I can give you some pointers.

1) Stop playing so many tables
I know that when I was trying to improve my game I would play 4 tables. That’s the maximum I play now. Not coincidentally, I am trying to get better. Now, I will be the first to admit that I am not a machine with multitabling, but if you are going to try to sit here and tell me that you can improve as much playing 9-12 tables on autopilot compared to 4-6 I will laugh at you and tell you you’re very likely mistaken.

2) Table Select Better
I know you’ve heard this countless times, but there is a reason that it is #2 on the list. You’re not doing it well enough. I don’t care if you are the best player at NL200, there are juicer tables out there than a 4 handed table between you are 3 weaker regs. It’s NL200 – there are millions of fish. You have FTP AND PS to choose from, so it’s not that hard to table select really, really well.

3) Rethink the idea of a “goal”
A goal should be something that pushes you in the right direction, NOT something that CONTROLS YOU. When I see someone set a goal for example, “200k hands this month,” I know that they will hate poker by the end of the month, regardless of if they reached their goal or not. One of the most overlooked aspects of poker is being in control. If you are a slave to a goal, you will not enjoy poker, you will play sessions when you are tired or in poor shape to reach your goal, and you will lose money! So, I suggest setting a goal with the idea that it be a little kick in the butt to push yourself a little more, not a complete ass-beating.

4) Control the game
Piggybacking off #3 is the idea that poker can be a very controlling game. If you wake up and must play, or you must play during the day and at night, then poker controls you. If you can’t take time off, then poker controls you. Something that I would suggest doing if you have this problem is to find another hobby or something that you are passionate about. This insures that poker does not consume your life. You will be in a better mood and state of mind when you play, and your results will be better. Other things that go into this category include the idea of playing when the games are good. Not only must you get up if you are not ready to play, or not in a good state of mind, or not playing well during that current session (ie don’t chase losses when playing poorly or even if you have a negative mindset) but you shouldn’t sit if the games are bad. If the tables are full of regulars or a ratio of regs:fish that is abnormally bad, just don’t play. Go do something else. Go outside. Go exercise. Or, if you must do something poker related, do the most underused form of improvement….

5) Review your sessions.
After my sessions, I review EVERY HAND that I played. That means I put the table into PT and look hand by hand. I look at every hand where the pot was over xbb. I look at the action, and I take notes on my opponents. Even playing only 4 tables, I don’t pick up on everything. I save these notes to a text document, or import them to the site directly if applicable. This is especially helpful if you play vs the same people a lot. Of course, if you play a session late at night, you can always go to bed after and review it in the morning or afternoon, before your next session, generally when the games aren’t as good.

Additionally, I write down every hand during my session that I found myself in a difficult spot, and I look at it afterwards. If I can’t figure it out, I’ll ask some people (either AIM or posting it), and come to a consensus.

If I am having difficultly vs a particular opponent I will look at EVERY hand I have from them when I click on their name and I will make a big file with every little note I make. I will then make generalizations from the notes and write them onto the player note for this player, so I have them next time I play them.

6) Pay attention when you are playing
Turn off the TV. Log out of 2p2 and AIM or whatever you use to talk. Don’t have a browser open. Focus on poker. Take absolutely stellar notes, and make sure you are focused. If you aren’t focused, it’s time to quit.

7) Don’t be afraid to move up. If you are cruising along in your limit, and you have a decent bankroll, don’t be afraid to move up. I know personally how much it hurts to lose “2x” the money and have to rebuild, but you’re beating your current stakes pretty well, so it’s not the end of the world. I’m pretty sure no SSNLer has had a 60k downswing like yours truly, so I don’t really want to hear it. You can handle the loss, and you will rebound.

*BONUS*
If you aren’t playing well, just get up. If you start to feel tilted, just get up. I know that you are +EV with the huge fish with 300bb each to your direct right even though you are tilted or playing your C game, but I promise you will lose money. It might be from making some terrible play vs a good player at your table, or it might be from incorrectly adjusting to the fish. At the end of the day, I cannot even tell you how many times this has happened to me or people I know. Just get up. It’s actually the most +EV thing to do.

keikiwai 06-30-2007 05:17 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
i like this post thanks greg, i read it all

about session review

last month i reviewed each session and i ran well

this month i haven't been reviewing as much and i'm sucking air.... probably not 100% coincidence

you really find out what type of hands you play bad, and which ones you play well when you review your sessions

SpecT 06-30-2007 05:52 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
this is exactly what i need to hear
and u got a cool blog

thanx greg

_TKO_ 06-30-2007 06:08 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Thank you.

Rolen 06-30-2007 06:17 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Good post, well written. I think points 2 and 6 are especially useful.

sh58 06-30-2007 08:04 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
i like this post.

i think table selection is very important. i see lots of regulars playing against each other and wonder wtf they are thinking, usually if there has been me, 2 fish, and 3 regulars, and the fish leave, i leave, and they carry on playing against each other.

there is no need to play like this, at NL100 on party there are always tables at least with at least 2 massive donaters

Jigsaws 06-30-2007 09:17 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Good post Greg, though I feel I'm already doing these things pretty well. Maybe that's why I'm on my way to MSNL.

Rainclouds 06-30-2007 09:24 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
I can improve myself on point 4. At the rest of the points I'm doing okay. Still, I don't see myself move up to MSNL soon.

Great post anyway!

mbman 06-30-2007 10:15 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
vnp!

Isura 06-30-2007 10:19 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Good post. I disagree with your philosophy for moving up though. It is fine for some people, but most people aren't that smart and will never be able to crush 5/10+.

McRoNiX 06-30-2007 10:24 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
So do you think as soon as you aquire a bankroll suitable for bigger stakes you should try moving up? Eg/ Say I get a 5-6k roll together playing 100NL. Should I then definitely start thinking about moving up to 200nl even if I'm not a huge winner and am learning lots still??
Nice Post btw.

ArgusSpets 06-30-2007 10:27 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
awesome post. thanks.

Will221 06-30-2007 11:00 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
thanks a lot for this, motivates me to move up even more and makes me realize ive been a pussy for too long

Timelord 06-30-2007 11:11 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Lots of very useful points there, thanks. However you talk as if this advice can apply to everyone which I don't think is the case. For example some people can put in long sessions on many tables while maintaining a high level of play, whereas other people are most profitable playing a few tables in short sessions. It is very dependent on the individual.

Also with regards to moving up levels I see nothing wrong with staying at a limit you can beat and make good money at. Although long term moving up levels may be more profitable the thought of having to deal with -10k days may not be appealing to a lot of people. And if you can make 10k a month on 200nl and are happy with that why move up? Greed?

lucky_mf 06-30-2007 11:26 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also with regards to moving up levels I see nothing wrong with staying at a limit you can beat and make good money at. Although long term moving up levels may be more profitable the thought of having to deal with -10k days may not be appealing to a lot of people. And if you can make 10k a month on 200nl and are happy with that why move up? Greed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to see this the same way. I don't anymore. If you can make 10k per month playing 200NL you might be able to make 40K per month playing 1kNL. Maybe you can't, but the prospect of all that extra income makes it worth taking some shots to find out. Also the only way to deal with big swings is to go though a few and see that life and poker goes on. Lose and win 5k a couple times and 1kNL buy-in won't seem like very much $.

Lucky

dirtytricks 06-30-2007 11:34 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Very nice post! Thanx

metamath 06-30-2007 11:39 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
inspiring, thank you

straate 06-30-2007 11:48 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
really really good

im starting to get motivated again now

Claunchy 06-30-2007 11:52 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
[ QUOTE ]
So do you think as soon as you aquire a bankroll suitable for bigger stakes you should try moving up? Eg/ Say I get a 5-6k roll together playing 100NL. Should I then definitely start thinking about moving up to 200nl even if I'm not a huge winner and am learning lots still??
Nice Post btw.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not Greg, but I'll respond.

If you're barely beating 100NL and don't think you're ready to move up yet, don't, even if your BR can handle it. I'd withdraw a couple thousand, maybe buy something cool to remind yourself why you're playing.

Ben86 06-30-2007 11:58 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
such a great read. added as a favorite topic thanks greg.

Tickner 06-30-2007 12:06 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Good post as always Greg. I'm going to print this off an read it before each time I play.

orange 06-30-2007 12:23 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Very guilty of never moving up <---

Kermit 06-30-2007 12:32 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
[ QUOTE ]
Very guilty of never moving up <---

[/ QUOTE ]

there seem to be a large number of players at the 200NL level that refuse to move up.

i agree w/ much of what lucky_mf said. desensitizing yourself to the amounsts of money won or lost is very big part of moving up for a lot of players.

the first time i lost 10K in a day, i thought it was the end of the world. i tilt cashed out like half my online roll (really wish i didnt do that) and moved back down to 1/2. once you get used to the stakes though, they just become numbers on a screen again and it becomes easier to play your game.

Al_Money 06-30-2007 12:33 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
[ QUOTE ]
Very guilty of never moving up <---

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Nice post Greg.

craigthedeac 06-30-2007 01:11 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
i like

carnivalhobo 06-30-2007 01:34 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
best post in the forum in a month+

MYNAMEIZGREG 06-30-2007 01:45 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Ok, let me share some thoughts about moving up as I run out the door here.....

Moving up has always been a delicate subject, and much more for SS players because they physically have not moved up as many times as a higher stakes player. In my own experience, the first time I moved up where I was really ok and not any psychologically different was the incorporation of NL5000 games, so go figure.

I would not suggest moving up if you are a slight winning player at your current level. Again, from my experience, since moving up tends to many times be more of a mental block than anything else, bring as much ammunition as you can with you. Therefore, try to be one of the better players at your current level, or at least feel confident that you can beat your current stake pretty well. Therefore, if/when you lose a bunch at the level you are attempting to move up to, if won't be the end of the world because you KNOW that you will be able to just go back to your former level and cruise along there for a while.

Now, if you aren't one of the better players at your limit, and that's perfectly ok (and normal btw), then keep humming along and actively trying to get better.


Isura and the others who disagree in terms of maximum development of one player - Some people might not be able to win at high stakes. However, you have to remember that we are dealing with motivated individuals who have the desire to improve. Discuss hands with friends, post on 2p2, and spend more time thinking about poker when you aren't playing (but not when it's time to do something else). A friend of mine brought up the exact argument you guys are, but I am saying that you will be surprised how successful you can get at this game if you work at it.


Also something I just thought of: Everyone deals with tilt issues. Well, something I try to do when I feel like I am tilting is to turn the money into actual dollars, instead of 100bb. Therefore, if I tilt and lose a buyin, I will lose one hundred dollars, which is a lot of money in the real world. For whatever reason, this helps me click the x's in the top right corner when it's right to.

grando 06-30-2007 02:12 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
brilliant post, especially the tilt part

favourites, here you come...

Mossberg 06-30-2007 03:59 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
good post man, thanks very much! I really needed some motivation to start being more aggressive with moving up (considering I'm wayy over-rolled for 1/2).

[ QUOTE ]
Last June, I was playing NL200 on Party Poker, and now I am a winning NL2000 and NL5000 player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Inspiring!

brutalBeater 06-30-2007 04:38 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Thnx for the awesome post man!

Rainclouds 06-30-2007 04:45 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Last June, I was playing NL200 on Party Poker, and now I am a winning NL2000 and NL5000 player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Inspiring!

[/ QUOTE ]
Which reminds me, last June, I was taking my first shots at 200NL which failed badly.
Now, a year later, I can beat 200NL but I still play 50/50 between 100NL and 200NL. I guess I am very slow at moving up [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

gir 06-30-2007 04:59 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Great post.

I especially agree with reviewing sessions...Except I do it while playing and think about it continually. I hate making mistakes, it drives me nuts. Even if I'm down 4 buyins and haven't made a single error, I'm still happier than having made a whole swing of mistakes and being breakeven. Every time I make a mistake and lose my stack, I force myself to learn a lesson so that it was not for naught.

If I lose $200, then it was a $200 lesson that I had to learn. Hopefully, I won't do it again...but I probably will. Then it will be a $400 lesson. And then a $600 lesson. Some lessons just cost more, but I will eventually learn it and stop losing money that way. Just pay attention to what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. And when you don't know anymore, post here, in 2p2. You'll find out.

MYNAMEIZGREG 06-30-2007 06:16 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Last June, I was playing NL200 on Party Poker, and now I am a winning NL2000 and NL5000 player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Inspiring!

[/ QUOTE ]
Which reminds me, last June, I was taking my first shots at 200NL which failed badly.
Now, a year later, I can beat 200NL but I still play 50/50 between 100NL and 200NL. I guess I am very slow at moving up [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not slow at moving up. Something to consider is how much effort have you put into improving as a player? I would be willing to guess the time trying to get better vs the time playing is very low in your case. Maybe try to shift that ratio a little bit and see what happens.

Fonkey123 06-30-2007 06:21 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Greg, I think you're awesome. Thanks. <3

Tickner 06-30-2007 07:18 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Greg,

With the increase of average skill level of players at all levels across the internet, is the process of moving up getting much harder as time goes by?

Do you still think it's possible for someone in SSNL to emulate your (or for ex aba20 or cts) success?

MYNAMEIZGREG 06-30-2007 07:48 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
[ QUOTE ]
Greg,

With the increase of average skill level of players at all levels across the internet, is the process of moving up getting much harder as time goes by?

Do you still think it's possible for someone in SSNL to emulate your (or for ex aba20 or cts) success?

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to this question is most definetely yes. When I moved up last year through the ranks, I really didn't review my sessions. I still wrote down troublesome hands and sent them to my them-coach KRANTZ (I still have a coach btw), and he would look at them and send me back this thoughts. However, I didn't actively look through PT and this is something major IMO, and I really didn't try to think about the game in a deeper fashion than I am now, so there are definetely very tangible things you can do that would make you improve more quickly, despite the increased difficultly in games.

I just thought of something. Of course it's possible to move up quickly; I did it late last year.

After Party shut down, I found myself in a rut. During the last days of Party I was playing 5/10 as my main game, but took shots at 10/20. Afterwards, I played 3/6 for a while, and kind of spun my wheels. I had a couple breakeven months, then decided in January to pick myself back up and go from there. So I withdrew everything except 3k in UB, and started playing 1/2. I won 20k that month and ended at 3/6. Then in Februrary I played 3/6, and then mostly 5/10. Towards the end of Feb I said ok it's time and i moved up to 10/20 on FTP and 10/25 on UB (and 10/20 on Stars). So yes, I basically shot my way up, adjusting to the new style of 6m that presented itself along the way.

Will you be able to do this? Of course not. After all, it was my second time. However, the point is that it's most certainly possible. Just really focus a lot on improving.

pickless 06-30-2007 07:49 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
this is really really good.

aislephive 06-30-2007 10:17 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Good post Greg, I agree with a lot of what you said but not everything.

1.) I agree, putting in time thinking about hands and studying is very important. But I think if you're a solid winner in the games you're playing, it is more worthwhile to put in a lot of hands than to focus on playing less tables and "improving." If your results really aren't up to par and you're playing 12 tables then you really should cut down on a few of them and try to improve your game. I think if you have a good edge and you know it however, then lots of tables and hands is a quick way to making a lot money and building a roll. When you move up I really think you should definitely cut down on the amount of tables you play until you prove to yourself that you're a winner (and don't add tables again until you're winning at a pretty good clip).

2.) Definitely agree, and this is one of my strong points in my game. I table select very well and almost never stay at tables with just regulars, even though I'm positive I have an edge on all of them, especially if there are a lot of better tables to be played at. If the games aren't good, typically I don't play. This is so rarely the case right now I don't have to worry about it, but at $400/$600 nl on Party the games are tougher and there are plenty of times when the games are not good.

3. Agreed, hand challenges are really tough and every time I do them I regret it later on. It's important to play when you're in the mood instead of forcing yourself to play when you're not in a good state of mind.

4.) I've never had this issue, in fact for me it's always been the contrary. I don't treat poker enough as a job considering it's my only source of income. I could make a lot of money if I put in hours comparable to most of the working class people, but for one reason or another it's hard for me to do that.

5.) I do this a lot, and I try to make sure that when I have a bad session there wasn't much I could do. Some sessions are just unavoidable, every cbet gets raised or floated, every double barrell gets shoved on, you keep missing flops and when you hit big hands they aren't holding up, that [censored] happens to everybody. But for me I usually don't make too many big mistakes anymore. I think people tend to get too results oriented about hands that are extremely close and they don't realize the difference between the EV in the decision they made and the one they think they should've made is very very close. So I tend to chalk a lot of situations up as simply variance, knowing that this guy would easily have committed with worse against my TPTK but this time happened to flop a set, that kind of thing.

Also, I do a lot of studying of other players. When CTS was playing lower stakes on FTP I would often open all of his tables, leave it, come back in a few hours and import the hands into PT, then I'd study how he played and what he did that made him so good. I really believe that it helped my game a lot.

6.) I'm generally very good about this as well, I almost never have 2p2 up when I play and although I do keep AIM/MSN on, I keep chatting to a minimum, and it's only with people I talk to all the time. If somebody randomly out of the blue IMs me who I don't know I usually just tell them to contact me later.

7.) This is something I've struggled with, specifically cashing out too much and not concentrating on building a roll and moving up. This time around I told myself things were going to be different. I have plenty of money right now and don't need to cash out for a while. I'm currently grinding $200nl but I'm overrolled for $400nl at the moment and I'm going to play there in July and try to make the move up there for good as well as some $600nl, and eventually $1knl. To be honest I'm really excited about it, as it's getting to the point where winning $15k-20k+ a month is now a definite possibility and hopefully a soon to be reality.

As for your bonus comments, IMO they're very player dependant. I personally am the type of person who doesn't like to lose, and when I'm down a couple buyins or I just can't win a hand often times I'll just quit for the day or the session and come back another time. When I'm down 6-7 buyins it's usually tilts the hell out of me and I force myself to stop, where as some people are able to brush it off, keep playing and get unstuck. Guys like CTS come to mind in regards to that, and I really wish I was able to do that.

Like I said, good post. Looking forward to more from you, gl.

Kermit 06-30-2007 10:33 PM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I do a lot of studying of other players. When CTS was playing lower stakes on FTP I would often open all of his tables, leave it, come back in a few hours and import the hands into PT, then I'd study how he played and what he did that made him so good. I really believe that it helped my game a lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

lolz...me too

Saviour_Flare 07-01-2007 12:43 AM

Re: What you are Doing Wrong as an SSNLer
 
Nice post! Very informative.


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