Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

Villain is 25/15/1.5 on 200 hands, break-even player. I have the same image at the table.

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $196.80
Hero: $262.27
CO: $257.65
Button: $188.15
SB: $58.16
BB: $278.13

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero calls, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $8</font>, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($25, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($25, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $16</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $40.54</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises all-in $256.13</font>, <font color="#0000bb">Hero ???</font>.

I know pre-flop call is questionable, please concentrate to post-flop. Do you call this shove or fold? Why?

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

I think this is close, but I call because we have a set!!!

I expect to see AJ/J9/96s or something a lot, but of course you might be crushed by a higher set.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know pre-flop call is questionable

[/ QUOTE ]why? a set is mostly the nutzzz, no matter if it's a set 7s or 2s... or not?

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

I think "mostly" is the keyword. Set over set chances are higher with 2-2 than 7-7. And if it happens you lose much.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

I can see Villain having a good hand here. He just called from the BB, so he still has a wide range of hands. He checked to the aggressor on the Flop so I really think he was attempting a check-raise,b/c he bet out strong after a irrelevant card on Turn.

But I think he knows that you are strong too, since you limp/called preflop and checked flop. then raise turn strong. I think he has to put you on at least 2 pair here, I can't see him pushing with 9-6,9-2,etc... He might Push J-9,7-8s. 66,99,JJ is kinf of overplayed on the Turn. Maybe that was his intention, but would he really push a Set in this spot?

Don't think so. Call and hope he has Two pair or monster draw!

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

Would you have raised 77 PF? Or do you just mix it up from time to time?

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

How do you know he's a break-even player?

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

a) raise pf
b)as played pf c is so std
c)plz dont fold...who cares if u get shown jj

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

It really depends on the table too, but I raise with 77 most of the time, mixing in some limps or minraises [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

I feel that early position limping means small PP in the eye of a lot of players, so my hand is readable. Do you think this is true?

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

d)plz stop mixing in min raises

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know he's a break-even player?

[/ QUOTE ]

From PokerTracker. Of course only for this 200 hands that we have played together.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
d)plz stop mixing in min raises

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? In my experiences a lot of people get suspicious and confused. And that is a good thing.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

200 = definitive reading he's obv breakeven guys

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
d)plz stop mixing in min raises

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? In my experiences a lot of people get suspicious and confused. And that is a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

the idea isn't to confuse people its to stack them...and people never put you on small pp when you r in ep...so theyre already confused...the only thing you accomplish is letting people in and creating a multiway pot when youre vulnerable...

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

also there is huge merit to the fact that every time u flop a set its in a raised pot where one flop raise will have you in a huge pot

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
From PokerTracker. Of course only for this 200 hands that we have played together.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol so you would respect my raises if I happened to show 61 PTBB/100 over 200 hands?

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

Oh and about the hand, I wouldn't fold a set in this spot with these stacks without a very good read.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From PokerTracker. Of course only for this 200 hands that we have played together.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol so you would respect my raises if I happened to show 61 PTBB/100 over 200 hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that is why I have stated the number explicitly in my original post. This is an info, even if it is not much. And I felt I could not sleep well if I do not share it with you [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
d)plz stop mixing in min raises

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? In my experiences a lot of people get suspicious and confused. And that is a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

the idea isn't to confuse people its to stack them...and people never put you on small pp when you r in ep...so theyre already confused...the only thing you accomplish is letting people in and creating a multiway pot when youre vulnerable...

[/ QUOTE ]

If I hit a set I like to have an inflated pot with more people in it. There is a better chance that someone will have a pair or two.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
d)plz stop mixing in min raises

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? In my experiences a lot of people get suspicious and confused. And that is a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

the idea isn't to confuse people its to stack them...and people never put you on small pp when you r in ep...so theyre already confused...the only thing you accomplish is letting people in and creating a multiway pot when youre vulnerable...

[/ QUOTE ]

If I hit a set I like to have an inflated pot with more people in it. There is a better chance that someone will have a pair or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you're missing the point here by a lot...i dont have time to go through it cause i have to go to work but quickly youre going to hit a set 1 in 8 times...the other 7 you'd like to have a good shot at winning the pot...you're not going to be winning a lot of pots unimproved multiway after you've min raised + because its a min raise you open yourself to all sorts of shots pf and on the flop

p.s. his stats thru 200 hands would be helpful but his win rate is beyond meaningless

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
d)plz stop mixing in min raises

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? In my experiences a lot of people get suspicious and confused. And that is a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

the idea isn't to confuse people its to stack them...and people never put you on small pp when you r in ep...so theyre already confused...the only thing you accomplish is letting people in and creating a multiway pot when youre vulnerable...

[/ QUOTE ]

If I hit a set I like to have an inflated pot with more people in it. There is a better chance that someone will have a pair or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you're missing the point here by a lot...i dont have time to go through it cause i have to go to work but quickly youre going to hit a set 1 in 8 times...the other 7 you'd like to have a good shot at winning the pot...you're not going to be winning a lot of pots unimproved multiway after you've min raised + because its a min raise you open yourself to all sorts of shots pf and on the flop


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand why a standard raise is good, and as I wrote I min-raise only to mix it up (instead of limping).
So the question why do you think min-raising less good than limping?

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I understand why a standard raise is good, and as I wrote I min-raise only to mix it up (instead of limping).
So the question why do you think min-raising less good than limping?


[/ QUOTE ]

They are both generally poor in 6max. I'm pretty sure at least 98% of this board plays raise or fold when they're first in the pot.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

yup limping is also bad...this isnt the place to mix up your play and most people dont notice anyway

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
It really depends on the table too, but I raise with 77 most of the time, mixing in some limps or minraises [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

I feel that early position limping means small PP in the eye of a lot of players, so my hand is readable. Do you think this is true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, at least people can put you on a narrow range if you usually don't limp QQ+,AKs,AQ,etc. That's why, adjust: Either limp with really strong hands too or stop limping at all.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

raise preflop
get all in on turn

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

I don't really mind people mixing up their play. I think people can be really closed minded sometimes, and I know some very good players that are much more successful than me that like to limp, min-raise, and raise different amounts here pre-flop.

I think pre-flop play can change a lot from situation to situation. Min-raising may be the most profitable way to play your hand if you feel your on a loose-passive table where everyone has at least 100 BBs, and you're just building the pot. I'm sure there's other situations given prior play, your image etc. that can make a min-raise the greatest EV way to play it.

Onto the hand, I don't think you should fold here even. I think you will see a draw, two pair, AJ, or a bluff too often to fold.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

the only thing questionable about pf is that you should be open-raising any PP against reasoable-deep stacks to make it easier to get it all in when you hit your set. the turn looks like set-overset to me, but i'm a donk and would probably call and cry when he shows set of sixes.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

yes. that's one of the reasons you should raise 22.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

if you hit a set, you want and inflated pot, but not more people in it.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

Raise pf to buy fold-equity. Min-raise is horrible because you don't get FE and you don't build the pot enough to assure stackage when you hit. Mostly you just waste 1bb.

Mixing up is totally unnecessary at SSNL and usually a waste of effort and resources.

As played, pf is a super standard call.

Felt the turn 99% of the time, 1% being reserved for when you have a ninja-read on villain or he shows you a higher set.

Win-rate is meaningless after 200 hands. It's even meaningless after 2k hands, and probably not that accurate after 20k hands.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

I would never fold this, why would he check the flop with a set?

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

review a,b,c and d

"Win-rate is meaningless after 200 hands. It's even meaningless after 2k hands, and probably not that accurate after 20k hands."

id get it in too

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

your postflop play isnt terrible at all. you have implied odds in case you hit your set. They offer you their stack by checking the flop and suprise suprise you make your set on the turn. you should instant call this hand. THis is the situation you are looking for after calling 8 preflop!!

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would never fold this, why would he check the flop with a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

People like to slowplay and also love checking to the preflop raiser to do a check raise.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

Call, and it's not close.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call, and it's not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

this thread is good entertainment.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

all in

all day

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

Result posted in white:
<font color="white">Hero calls. River is a brick, Villain shows JJ and wins a nice pot from poor Hero.</font>

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

sometimes set over set happens, really you shouldn't worry about it too much, no one gets away from them so they should generally even out.

Re: Am I a chicken to fold? (200NL 6max)
 

I dont know why people blow this post talking about preflop.

I think he has a set here a large percent of the time. It seem like he made a small bet on the turn to induce a raise so he could push. Not many other hands make sense if you have a taggy image. What other hands could he have? He is in the big blind and I doubt he calls preflop with J9 a push here with a monster draw is also retarded. Your reraise looks really strong.

I cant fold this in the heat of action but I wish I could.

I would reraise bigger on the turn though to make the decision easier.

Anyway its a cooler. Move on!