Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

know we have covered this generally before, but today i saw a ruling on a version I hadn't seen before.

Blinds are $75 & $150.he Big Blind is posted as 1 $100 chip and 2 $25 chips. Middle position player raises to $525, theres a call and when it gets to the big blind he reaches in and takes back the $100 chip and 1 $25 chip (leaving one $25 chip) and then throws out a $1000. Dealer announces this as a raise, player objects saying he only intended to call (but make it easier for the dealer to make change) and that he threw out a single oversized chip so it is a call.

Floor rules this is a call per oversized chip rule, but i don't think this ruling is correct. It seems to me that the by pulling back two of the three chips and then throwing out an oversized chip the player was essentially throwing out two chips.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

This is a call. In tournaments this is a long standing practice. I have seen rules nits argue (their argument comes up if there is a $30 bet and a player puts in a $100 and a $5 which is a call by custom in tournaments). Maybe some of these long established customs havne't been picked up by the new players since you commented you haven't seen this before and I know you deal NL on a daily basis.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

I have to agree with Randy on this one. The player only physically threw 1 chip into the pot, regardless of what he did before that by removing chips. He still only threw 1 chip into the pot at this particular point in time.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

I believe this is technically a raise and absolutely would stand as a raise if another player had acted before the player spoke up.

On the other hand, if i'm dealing the game and the player spoke up to correct me at the moment I announced the raise then I would let him go with the call.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

Just a note on this. This is probably not as common as it used to be because most tournaments do not use $5 chips. At the betting levels that use $5 chips there is a constant need to make change so this became customary as a call.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

I would easily give this call to the player as a call but warn him that in the future, his best interest would be wise to announce a call while doing what he did. There are just way to many weak floors in the poker business world and a practice of what this player did could get him in trouble at times.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

[ QUOTE ]
know we have covered this generally before, but today i saw a ruling on a version I hadn't seen before.

Blinds are $75 & $150.he Big Blind is posted as 1 $100 chip and 2 $25 chips. Middle position player raises to $525, theres a call and when it gets to the big blind he reaches in and takes back the $100 chip and 1 $25 chip (leaving one $25 chip) and then throws out a $1000. Dealer announces this as a raise, player objects saying he only intended to call (but make it easier for the dealer to make change) and that he threw out a single oversized chip so it is a call.

Floor rules this is a call per oversized chip rule, but i don't think this ruling is correct. It seems to me that the by pulling back two of the three chips and then throwing out an oversized chip the player was essentially throwing out two chips.

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Ill say the same thing ive said to players who move the button without saying anything... then protest when i move it.
"Stop trying to help me" (with a grin).
Trying to "make things easier" doesnt always...many times it causes more problems. This is a perfect example.
Technically, he made a raise whether he meant to or not.
Had he pulled all his blind chips then tossed the single chip in..no problem.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

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This is a call. In tournaments this is a long standing practice. I have seen rules nits argue (their argument comes up if there is a $30 bet and a player puts in a $100 and a $5 which is a call by custom in tournaments). Maybe some of these long established customs havne't been picked up by the new players since you commented you haven't seen this before and I know you deal NL on a daily basis.

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The NL I deal typically doesn't involve this sort of issue since its almost entirely bet as Red chips.

But What specifically mean I hadn't seen before was the ruling where a player takes back some of the chips he already had out there and adds to it and has it treatyed as a single chip.

In the same card room I saw a circumstance where in a oturnament, facing a $125 bet the player through out a $500 and a $25 and this was called a raise (even though the player protetsted that he only meant to call and the $25 chip was to help make change easier).

Given that prior ruling (which appears more common in todays Las Vegas poker rooms) do you think that taking back 2 chips a and specifically leaving one and then adding an oversized chip should be considered the same thing as only throwing out an oversized chip).


Now that I think about it. I was involved in this scenario.laying $1-$2 NL I'm the small blind. Action comes around to me and I want to raise to $6. I reach out with a $5 chip pick up the $1 (which is already out over the betting line) and toss both chips forward a few inches (never having taken back the $1). Dealer treated this as a raise, but later commented that he thinks he made a mistake and that it should have been treated as an oversized chip. In my mind it seems that my action made it clear I was betting the two chips. How do you see that situation?

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

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I have to agree with Randy on this one. The player only physically threw 1 chip into the pot, regardless of what he did before that by removing chips. He still only threw 1 chip into the pot at this particular point in time.

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Ok so you say it doesn't matter what he did with the other chips and that this should be treated as throwing out a single chip.

Does this look different to you if the player reached out and took back the 2 $25 chips left the black chip and tossed out the $1000. Randy's answer doesn't seem to hinge on the fact that single chip is all that was thrown out, but based upon a custome of making it eaiser to make change. If it had been the $100 chip left out there it wouldn't look like it was being done to make change eaiser.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

This is pre-flop action here. pre-flop over chip into the pot with no verbal declaration is just a call.
Same as if UTG or anyone else tossed in a 5,000 chip with no verbal announcement. It would be a call.

Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

I like to use common sense in these situations. I only think the rules should be pulled out when actions like a single chip call or this one cause action on players behind. If the players behind have not acted, I see nothing wrong with asking the player what his intention was before moving on.

So in essence, I don't even like the single chip rule. If a player lays out a single chip and the dealer or a player behind asks him what it means, he should have the choice of declaring a call or a legal raise up to the amount of the single chip. However, if a player behind also calls or raises, then the rules have to come out and the big chip can only be a call.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

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This is pre-flop action here. pre-flop over chip into the pot with no verbal declaration is just a call.
Same as if UTG or anyone else tossed in a 5,000 chip with no verbal announcement. It would be a call.

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Thats fine, but can you address the issue of why or why not you think this is a single oversized chip, when in fact it looks like the player DELIBERATELY bet two chips (by acting to take back two chips but not the third)

Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

In my opinion if your player is taking back part of his 1st bet and adding another chip to his action then the bet is not a single oversize chip. My opinion is that the player is actually taking back his entire 1st bet and completing his action with 2 chips not a single oversize chip.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is pre-flop action here. pre-flop over chip into the pot with no verbal declaration is just a call.
Same as if UTG or anyone else tossed in a 5,000 chip with no verbal announcement. It would be a call.

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Thats fine, but can you address the issue of why or why not you think this is a single oversized chip, when in fact it looks like the player DELIBERATELY bet two chips (by acting to take back two chips but not the third)

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Rather than an over chip situation, I think this is the rule that applies.
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8. The same action may have a different meaning, depending on who does it, so the possible intent of an offender will be taken into consideration. Some factors here are the person’s amount of poker experience and past record.

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It should be pretty clear from what the player does here if he meant to raise or call. Somethign has gone horribly wrong if a player's intent is clear and a floorman or dealer cites some rule and forces them to do somethign else.

Re: Ruling Re: Raise or Call
 

This is what I meant in my earlier post. If the player's intent was clear then the dealer should have handled it without calling the floor person. If the player's intended action was so unclear that a floor person had to be called for a decision then the floor person will have to decide based on known and established rules.