250BB deep, flopped straight vs. LAG
 

1/2 NL live. Me and villain have $500 stacks

I am regarded by most of the table as tight/rockish. On the button after several limpers I make it $15 with 6h5h. All fold to player just to my right, the only player who has me covered. I have never played with him before, but earlier I watched him make a pot sized $100 bet on the turn with a gutshot, even though one of the remaining players had only $20 and was obviously committed. All in all, I figure him to be LAGgy.

(Pot $35)
Flop is 8c7c4d. Villain leads out for $15. I smooth call.

(Pot $65)
Turn is an irritant, the 4c. Villain leads out for $50. I raise to $150. Villain calls.

(Pot $365)
River is the Kd. Villain shoves. Hero...?

Re: 250BB deep, flopped straight vs. LAG
 

I think I call because its live 1/2, but its close.

Please raise the flop.

Re: 250BB deep, flopped straight vs. LAG
 

Raise the flop, and I'd probably just call turn but it's close. I think river is a fold without a better read, this is a flush or boat a ton of the time.

Re: 250BB deep, flopped straight vs. LAG
 

flop is terrible ;o
fold river

Re: 250BB deep, flopped straight vs. LAG
 

250BB deep we be raising the flop with nuts vs maniacs.

Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

I didn't raise flop because if he's stabbing to see if I have AK or AQ as opposed to a big overpair (what he's thinking I must have), I lose him if he's only betting one pair. The last thing he'd think I had was 65, so I was willing to gamble that the turn card wouldn't complete a flush or a boat. Granted, that part of the plan did not work out well.

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

raise flop for sure, make it like $65-75

fold river

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

Fold river

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

flop = lollerskates

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise flop because if he's stabbing to see if I have AK or AQ as opposed to a big overpair (what he's thinking I must have), I lose him if he's only betting one pair. The last thing he'd think I had was 65, so I was willing to gamble that the turn card wouldn't complete a flush or a boat. Granted, that part of the plan did not work out well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has nothing then he will fold no matter what anyway, far more cards hurt you on the turn then help you.

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

Hi ftg,

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise flop because if he's stabbing to see if I have AK or AQ as opposed to a big overpair (what he's thinking I must have), I lose him if he's only betting one pair. The last thing he'd think I had was 65, so I was willing to gamble that the turn card wouldn't complete a flush or a boat. Granted, that part of the plan did not work out well.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is terrible thinking in deep stack no-limit. When you have a big hand aim for a big pot. Save the bluff-catching for the small pots. I hear what you're saying about the deception thing, but add deception into your game by being aggressive with more worse hands as opposed to being passive with more better hands. (So, for example, in a hand like this you should be raising his "stab" with a wide range of hands.)

As for gambling that the turn wasn't a flush or boat card - you realize there's as many as 20 cards, right? Aside from one of them scaring you out of the nuts, it could also kill your action (as could even more cards like an ace, etc.).

As played, definitely fold the river.

-S

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

True, but if he had nothing, then the turn can't hurt me. Plus he seemed the type to fire another barrel.

The thing is, if he had shoved the turn, I think the decision would have been easier. The fact that he waited for the river is what made it difficult.

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
True, but if he had nothing, then the turn can't hurt me. Plus he seemed the type to fire another barrel.

The thing is, if he had shoved the turn, I think the decision would have been easier. The fact that he waited for the river is what made it easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a boat/quads like 90% of the time

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

Sunny,

Image was the issue here. If I had been perceived as the kind of person who raises sc's for variety, I would have played faster. And I watched this particular player put his money in very badly prior. Granted, the river push gave me pause (hence the post), but I'm left wondering why he would pull a stop and go with a boat or a flush. Why does he think I'm more likely to call a river bet than a turn rerarise?

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sunny,

Image was the issue here. If I had been perceived as the kind of person who raises sc's for variety, I would have played faster. And I watched this particular player put his money in very badly prior. Granted, the river push gave me pause (hence the post), but I'm left wondering why he would pull a stop and go with a boat or a flush. Why does he think I'm more likely to call a river bet than a turn rerarise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... You say you don't have the image of being able to raise 65 on the button here.

So if you raise this flop and he has 87, he'll put you on AA and 3-bet, right?

Your thinking is still all messed up.

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

True, but if he has, say, A8/A7/A4, an overpair, or air (and that;s a narrow range, honestly) he's likely to bet turn if I just call. Even more true if he has 87.

My thinking may still be messed up, but I really thought the best way to build the pot was to get to the turn.

Re: Why I didn\'t raise flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
True, but if he has, say, A8/A7/A4, an overpair, or air (and that;s a narrow range, honestly) he's likely to bet turn if I just call. Even more true if he has 87.

My thinking may still be messed up, but I really thought the best way to build the pot was to get to the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you get to a (safe) turn, your line looks like a MONSTER.

Raising the flop doesn't, because he could put you on a flush draw, overpair, etc.

You are 250 BBs deep, and you only have 3 streets to get it in. And whatever he has, it's going to look a LOT different to him with 2 cards to come than with just one (or zero) to come. Do the math.

Results
 

Thanks for the replies. Since there's unanimity that I played the hand badly, I'll give you all the results. As it happened, the hand worked out perfectly for me, but I hated putting myself in such a difficult positon unnecessarily, and I don't want to be results-oriented.

Villain had KsJc, which meant that the flop bet was air, and his turn call of my reraise was to draw (getting 2.5 to 1 with zero implied odds )to a J high club flush. When he paired his K on the river, he made a big play at the pot. And I did call.

In my original post, I characterized this player as a LAG, but given what you know now about how he played the hand, did I describe him accurately enough? I did not play this hand the way I normally would almost entirely because of who I was playing against. In nearly every other situation I would indeed raise flop and fold river. I tend not to take unnecessary risks in my ususal 1/2 NL game because the play is so poor that straightforward play has been profitable, but this felt at the time to be an exceptional situation.

Someone posted that because this is a live game calling on the river is "close." I wonder how many more marginal calls for big bets some of you make in live games as opposed to online.

Re: 250BB deep, flopped straight vs. LAG
 

It looks to me like your play in this hand seriously represents a flush -- and, combined with your preflop play and your image, it should be a pretty big flush at that (as in quite possibly the turned nuts).

And yet the turn raise makes little impression on Villain. Maybe he's looking at the Ac himself and is thus discounting your turn play. Or maybe I'm already overanalyzing this and in fact he's just figuring that big $350 river bets do not get called very often.

Which I guess makes it sound like I'm looking for an excuse to call, and I kind of am. I mean, you are getting 2:1 versus a LAG who apparently doesn't think very deeply about his plays and has already made at least one big spewy bluff that we saw.

But, man, if he is thinking about your hand, it looks like you're in trouble. And the way you describe it, it doesn't sound like he's the type to think you're waiting until the turn to pop him with, say, AcAx.