Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

Hi Gang,

Many of my friends in the HSNL forum have heard about this hand, but I wanted to share it here because I thought it might generate some good discussion. Please feel free to give your thoughtful replies no matter what stakes or level you play at. Let's keep this thread flame-free. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I was in a pretty good 10/20 game at the Bellagio when a semi-famous tournament "pro" sat down and made the game GREAT. He bought in deep and started raising to one and two hundred dollars every hand and then jamming all-in for 2-300bb on the flop. He ran pretty good, won a few hands, and slowed down into a slightly lower gear.

And then the following hand comes up:

First off, let's establish that his impression of "you" is that you are tight and aggressive. In fact, he's muttered something along the lines of "You're solid, but I'm not afraid of you."

You haven't entered many pots, but played aggressively preflop when you have. The only time you've shown a hand is when you raised on the button with a suited connector. (Therefore he does know that you are not a totally uncreative nit.)

You have $2.7k and he has you covered. Onto the hand...

PREFLOP:

You limp UTG with AA and he min-raises to $40. Everyone folds back around to you and you make it $240. He thinks for barely a few seconds, and calls.

FLOP:

TT6 (rainbow)


Now, I have three questions:

1) Will you consider folding your aces at any point in this hand?

2) If you answered "yes" to the first question, explain why, or explain what events would have to happen in order for you to fold (either give a specific line you would take, or a tell you would look for, etc).

3) If you answered "no" to the first question, explain why not, and explain a few ways you might proceed with the hand postflop.


I'm really curious to hear how you guys approach a situation like this. I will check in with some thoughts later.

Thanks a lot,

Sunny

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

no. i think AA in a rr pot for less than 180bbs is the nizzles, and its just wrong to fold. bet bet shove.


bet 350,750,shove

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

Min-raise preflop seems like a medium to small pp. I doubt you can give him credit for a T here so I don't feel too worried about that.

1) Very unlikely.
2) x
3) cbet flop, CRAI turn.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

1. No
2. n/a
3. Im bet/calling the whole way.

I play AA in a RR pot for 135BB as the nuts on this board pretty much always, barring some miraculous read that i am sure of. If i pick up some sort of read that i am very sure of, the i MIGHT consider changing my answers to #1 and #2.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

He is a thinking Player and knows what Image he has created over the last few Hands. He knows that everyone is basically trying to get his money if he was playing so wild. He also knows that you might limp/raise UTG with some complete trash, making it look like AA/maybe KK. He is still good enough to make laydowns. Given that assumption I feel that most of the time he doesn't specifically put you on a strong hand here. So I wouldn't consider folding, even if he is showing major strength on later streets.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

1. No
3. Bet flop, if raised call and c/r turn all-in. If called, c/r turn all-in. I'm expecting him to bet the turn almost always figuring you have AK or he's simply trying to push you off whatever you have. If he doesn't bet the turn then the river may be interesting and I may opt for a river c/c figuring he might be slowplaying and he may valuebet the river with his medium pp anyways after we check turn and river.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

Hey Coltrane,

I would consider laying down AA at some point during this pot, but in this spot against an aggressive player your hand is faceup. You got > 10% in pre and he's the kind of player who will do his best to rep trips, here's a spot where I get all my chips in and chalk up the pot to variance if I lose.

The question here is to play your hand as AK or Aces up. I'd bet flop ~ $175 and check-raise AI on the turn, I get the feeling he's going to bet to when checked to, too much.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

Lead flop and take it from there. And its not deep, pot is big and villain is bad. Also the board allow him to be stacked with alot of crap and might get him to try to move you of AK, so wtf dont fold.

And limping is just lol =)

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

given how u caracterized villain, id bet the flop and c/c turn and river to let him blow off his money if he thinks he can get me off my hand by bettin big.
i dont see how he has a hand here that cann call 3 bets and doesnt beat ours. a minraise pf is more likly to bet a small pp, or SC kinda hand than an overpair to this flop.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

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And limping is just lol =)

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I'm guessing it's 10-handed.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

400 on flop. The 'you don't scare me' thing is funny. He'll put you on AK for sure. Then c/rai turn cause c/c doesn't leave much behind and the jig is pretty much up by then.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

bet/shove.. realllllllllly just not deep enough to be scared espeically given his line.. x10 is very unlikely, as is 66.. and he obv knows what you have and he knows you know, so he can be caught bluffing in alot of spots.. if anything bet, bet small(to induce raise), shove...

1. bet
2. bet small to trick this donkament punk into bluffing
3. ???
4. profit

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

1.Very unlikely

cbet call a shove or bet / c/r turn AI - I rarely fold AA in a 3bet pot w/o scary board or read [~100bb deep]. Certainly not in this spot where I guess qq/KK and may be JJ are going to raise somewhere by a tourney pro???

My only concern is the preflop limp-reraise I don't like it.
But if it's 10-handed I don't really know - if you've done it before then it adds a bit of deception but I guess even tourney pros are good enough to read your hand and put you on AQ+,TT+ as most of your range - but I bet you can use this to your advantage and act like you have JJ/QQ and scared of a higher PP by betting flop checking turn e.t.c

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

How come this is an intresting hand? We have AA vs maniac in 3betted pot with approx. 100 BB. I would never ever fold this hand on any flop vs this kind of players.

I would bet the half pot on flop, check turn and if he checks behind i would shove the river. Of course im getting in all my money at any point if he raises/bets somewhere.

How can anyone be thinking of folding AA vs this kind of players?

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

I don't think any line here can be that bad providing you don't fold.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

I dont consider folding because opponent is tricky and u will be folding the best hand too often to a lot of action.

All your limp/ reraise hands would c-bet the flop, so u should fire a standard 3/4 potsize flop bet.

Given that the board aint draw heavy, I would C/C the turn. Because C/R AI is just going to let him make a better decision. He can easily put u on AA,KK.

I would block the river 1/3 pot to induce a shove. He knows u are a solid TAG and he will recognize the block and try to represent the T tp push u off your obvious pair. Or he will call with his low pair and u still gain more value because he probably wont call the c/r AI on the turn with this holding.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

we have 123bbs at the flop and AA.

don't fold. bet the flop. c/r flop, do whatever you want.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

1. No.

I want to give him the chance to make the most expensive bluff/move so I go from there with bet sizes / when to c/r. Although considering he's overbet shoves lots already I bet 400$ on the flop and call his shove.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
we have 123bbs at the flop and AA.

don't fold. bet the flop. c/r flop, do whatever you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

We already limp/raise = check/raise. You don't want to do that twice

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
0) Does pf suck like an inverted hurricaine ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes - severely.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Wil you consider folding your aces at any point in this hand?

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Lol. Not unless villain uses his incredible forces of mind control to take control of my mind and hence force me to fold. I hate it when villains do that.

[ QUOTE ]
3) If you answered "no" to the first question, explain why not

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The chance he has a T now that 2 of them are out there in a re-raised pot are pretty slim. He is more likely to have a lower overpair, missed AK/AQ, or any other pair like 44/55. This is absolute best flop we can hope for. If you fold here you should come and play against me so at least I can have your monies =P

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and explain a few ways you might proceed with the hand postflop.

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Now that we fkd up pf, we should rep AK and look bluffy with a big bet of $380 and obv call a shove, which is what he will do with his whole range.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we have 123bbs at the flop and AA.

don't fold. bet the flop. c/r flop, do whatever you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

We already limp/raise = check/raise. You don't want to do that twice

[/ QUOTE ]


erm no. dan bright quadfecta ftw

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

First Thoughts:

If villain is crazy and raising PF a significant percentage of the time, especially if he's sitting close to my left, then PF really doesn't suck, and I would be considering this move with a range of hands beyond just AA, KK.

In general, I _would_ consider folding at some point. I raise him a further $200 when the hand gets back to me, and villain can win over 13x that from me (my initial stack is $2.7k). I've not cut down his implied odds sufficiently to make me prepared to pay him off regardless.

All that is irrespective of the flop actually seen. How the texture impacts my play, I would need to give more thought.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

yes, because you made your hand obvious as hell with a stupid limp reraise

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes, because you made your hand obvious as hell with a stupid limp reraise

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yeah I hate your limp re-raise. You might as well flip your hand face up.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

I don't hate the lrr, yall, he's not that deep and has gotten lots of money in against a bluffy maniac.

As others said, b3b. Maybe there is a twist to this pot somehow, but I can't see it...

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

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yes, because you made your hand obvious as hell with a stupid limp reraise

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At the levels I play (NL$100 mostly) this move is AA about 80% of the time and KK the other 20%, so if you were playing me at Stars NL$100 you wouldn't get another penny out of me unless I beat AA on the flop.

As to how to play this hand, assuming villain thinks your range includes something besides AK and high PPs, then I bet and call a shove on the flop. I might be able to fold (assuming I am not already AI) if the river brings a 4-straight or 4-flush on board.

I can't see dumping AA against a thinking maniac for less than 200 bbs, assuming of course that I haven't turned my hand face up.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

jesus just fold right now

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't hate the lrr, yall, he's not that deep and has gotten lots of money in against a bluffy maniac.

As others said, b3b. Maybe there is a twist to this pot somehow, but I can't see it...

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah but now the bluffy maniac knows you have a big pp

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes, because you made your hand obvious as hell with a stupid limp reraise

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At the levels I play (NL$100 mostly) this move is AA about 80% of the time and KK the other 20%, so if you were playing me at Stars NL$100 you wouldn't get another penny out of me unless I beat AA on the flop.

As to how to play this hand, assuming villain thinks your range includes something besides AK and high PPs, then I bet and call a shove on the flop. I might be able to fold (assuming I am not already AI) if the river brings a 4-straight or 4-flush on board.

I can't see dumping AA against a thinking maniac for less than 200 bbs, assuming of course that I haven't turned my hand face up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree that limp-reraising is almost never a good idea.

However, to be incapable of adjusting to the table conditions is bad poker, IMO, and with a crazy lag-raiser to our left, this is a good way of taking advantage. We can do this with a reasonably wide range. Munkey said it puts our range at TT+, AQ+, but that's not far off our Ring UTG pf-raise range anyway, is it? Throw in a couple of suited connectors for good measure.

I'm dubious about the min-raise however - villain knows we know he's raising with a lot of hands so a minraise is not likely to drive a lot of hands away - seems more like a pot sweetner, if anything. Then he instacalls our reraise - which suggests he doesn't have a hand he could 4bet, or might consider tossing. This feels a lot like small/mid PP's, possibly some suited connectors, rather than A-big kicker or bigger pairs.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

Now, I have three questions:

1) Will you consider folding your aces at any point in this hand?
<font color="blue">
I guess if I have to make that decision now, the answer would be no. </font>

2) If you answered "yes" to the first question, explain why, or explain what events would have to happen in order for you to fold (either give a specific line you would take, or a tell you would look for, etc).

<font color="blue"> I didn't answer 'yes' as with the information I have now, it's difficult to imagine a scenario in which I'd toss them but I'm sure there are certain scenarios in which I might toss them. I'm a big fan of keeping my decisions as open and dynamic as possible.</font>

3) If you answered "no" to the first question, explain why not, and explain a few ways you might proceed with the hand postflop.

<font color="blue"> I basically answered with a wishy washy no. My reasoning is simplistic. I have aces, this guy's a super bluffy maniac. I have less than 150bbs.</font>

<font color="blue">I'm thinking that his most likely hands here are small/mid pairs and sc's mixed in with a fair amount of total junk.

I'm definitely making my standard flop bet here. I think he's floating with nearly his entire range, he's got some gutters, some mid-pairs (maybe a 6)that still 'might' be good and he's got position.

It seems to me that all 6's, 7's,. 8's and 9's are potentially bad cards. If any of these cards comes on the turn, I'm probably turning my hand even more face up and c/c'ing all the way down as he seems crazy enough to try to bluff a virtual unknown off of aces here.

Most other turn cards I'm torn between bombs away and c/r all in. With paint I'm probably c/r all in and with the baby cards it's probably bombs away.</font>

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

I can't imagine folding this hand. I'd bet/call on the flop. If the money doesn't get all in on the flop, I may go for a CRAI on the turn.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) Will you consider folding your aces at any point in this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes...

[ QUOTE ]
2) If you answered "yes" to the first question, explain why, or explain what events would have to happen in order for you to fold (either give a specific line you would take, or a tell you would look for, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

...if villain accidentally (or purposefully, I suppose) flipped over a ten or pocket sixes before all the money was in.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

I'd open-fold.

In actuality, no, not folding. I hate the preflop move and I hope he can see past you having just AA in this spot. If you think he thinks you might just have AA, then I'd consider folding...but gah...I hate that move preflop unless you've done it before and gotten him to fold on the flop when you had nothing. Otherwise, gross.

I donk out here on the flop because it's already a messed up line. Let's look like we're full of it and donk with the best hand. It may just induce a bluff raise.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

I probably don't get away from it, however the villain could have just about anything.
The only thing i would keep in the back of my mind is the guy probably has a pretty good idea of what you have when you limp reraise from UTG. So say your range is JJ-AA and AK.

I would lead about half or 3/4 the pot hoping the guy will shove all-in on the flop. If he calls re-evaluate and assume he has some sort of pair.

Honestly, i think limp shoving preflop is a better play for the situation than limp reraising. The limp reriase to me completely telegraphs your hand.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

Ppl who hate preflop never played full ring. It's completely standard to do at least some of the time and more +EV than always open raising (provided you balance it okish).

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

The fact that he thinks you are solid is pretty key here, and if you haven't lrr in the past, your range should be pretty narrow on this board.

That being said, I'm still probably not folding, but it's not as easy as omg 120bb's all in.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ppl who hate preflop never played full ring. It's completely standard to do at least some of the time and more +EV than always open raising (provided you balance it okish).

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The biggest question is how will villain interpret it. If it's 'standard' for the table and doesn't announce hero's hand any more than an UTG raise would then fine.

Another good pre-flop question is what range would [edit] villain [/edit] min-raise like this.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ppl who hate preflop never played full ring. It's completely standard to do at least some of the time and more +EV than always open raising (provided you balance it okish).

[/ QUOTE ]

The biggest question is how will villain interpret it. If it's 'standard' for the table and doesn't announce hero's hand any more than an UTG raise would then fine.

Another good pre-flop question is what range would min-raise like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really good point/way of putting it.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

**grunch**

Man, I really hate preflop because if we've been playing nitty it just screams aces.

1) Will you consider folding your aces at any point in this hand?

Yes. If I had played more non-obviously preflop then I would never fold aces against this guy, but after that preflop line he has to know he we likely have a big pair, so if he wants to stack off we're probably beat.

edit : if hero has ever limp-reraised before against villain then I stack off here, but if this is the first time, then I play cautious. I'm also assuming villain has slowed down and is no longer a maniac, which would make the hand pointless to discuss.

Re: Bellagio 10/20 Hand Against TV Dude (No, not wrong forum)
 

PF is whatever. I've seen it so many times live and it definitely isnt always AA. People do all sorts of weird [censored] (I saw a guy do it with K9o in my last live game). I think that its an okay move to do when isolating.

Anyhoo, I'm not folding anytime postflop. Villan's range is incredibly wide, he's super aggro, we already put in 10% of our stack PF, I'm playing for stacks here.

I would typically bet the flop, but if you have a semi weak image, I might check/call. There arent a whole lot of scare cards and villan will be drawing to 2 outs at best most times.